Posted By Rafi on 25 Jun 2015 10:57 AM

Can't resist on having a message for LBear...

If you spend much time on this forum, you will learn to just ignore his posts.

Good stuff Arkie ! The pour is the part where most DIY'ers should get help

kenbw77 tried to send you a PM but no luck

Where in upstate N.Y. are you? I am about an hour east of Cleveland, Ohio and just wondering how far you are from me? Also, What block did you use for your price of $9 something and what other blocks do you use and the differences between them?

Dear Kenbw77 ,
dont let the "new member" fool you on alot of these posts, many of us dont have time to digest the platitudes of the veteran members(we are actually busy building ICFs), i would caution the shunning of any members on here giving there experience or testimonies for that matter. we tend to get tired of the wealth of information and just let it go, so to speak, i suggest that may not be a bad idea for some of us. However, anyone telling you 9.00 sqft for installation of ICF is either a Manufacturers Rep or a prop man for a KISS concert blowing smoke, well you get the idea, its not a reality UNLESS you are a DIY, in that case yes it might be possible.

I tried PM again but no luck. I'm 240 miles east of Buffalo, quite a distance from you. Bill, if you read Arkie's post he said his cost for the icf was about $2 per ft, so unless he used really expensive concrete and rebar his cost was well below $9 per ft. He can enlighten you with his total cost. Kenbw77, I've become a fan of vertical icf's for a number of reasons, but I've used probable 8-10 traditional blocks and a couple of unsual forms. They all performed well

My total cost for the ICF walls was ~$6/sq ft doing all of the work myself except for additional supplemental labor on the day of the pour. This is 8" walls in the basement and 6" walls on the main floor and includes everything: ICF, concrete, pumper truck, rebar on 16" centers both vertical and horizontal, bracing, window and door bucks, basement waterproofing (2 sides), and labor on the day of the pour.

Well congratulations to you then? maybe you could break down those cost for us? including waterproofing that's amazing on two sides? now does that include labor on the pour day or not?

I don't have the complete cost break down handy at the moment, but it did include labor for the pour. That was $100/hr for 3 guys for 6 hours x 2 pour days = $1200. Pumper truck was $150/hr with 4 hour minimum in the mornings = $600/each pour day. The first pump truck was a guy that lives ~10 miles down the road. He went out of business (divorce, money, and truck issues) before I did my second pour. The second pumper was ~90 miles away and he also charged a $100 travel and setup fee. Concrete was $95/yd for the basement pour and $100/yd for the main floor pour. I had quite a few wall openings including a 9'x7' garage door in the walkout basement. My basement wall openings were ~220 sq ft and main floor openings were ~380 sq ft. Waterproofing was TAMKO TW-60 waterproofing membrane at a cost of ~$150/roll that covers 200 sq ft plus a couple of buckets of mastic at ~$100/bucket. I had ~800 sq ft of water proofing. My waterproofing material cost was ~$800. I also used 1 roll (4'x200') of Polyguard LowFlow drainage and protection mat at a cost of $200. I had a couple of guys help me with the water proofing 1 Saturday at a cost of $400 labor. ICF material cost for both levels was ~$7800. My ICF envelop is 192 linear ft of wall and 20' high = 3840 sq ft x $6/sq ft = $23,000. This did not include the footings or basement slab.

Which ICF block was that? How much price difference would you say there is between the 6" concrete and the 8" concrete blocks including the concrete used?

I really hope that you guys start including which block you use in your experiences because some of those results that you describe will certainly be effected by the block used such as time, ease of use, cost of project, quality of outcome, etc.

I stated in a post above that I used LiteForm Xtra ICF, but that was a couple of years ago and I don't think they make the Xtra version (2.5" thick, 2# density EPS) anymore. I think they only offer the standard LiteForm now (2" thick, 2# density EPS foam). With Liteform, there is very little price difference between 6" and 8" core forms. The ties are just a few cents more per each for the 8" ties vs. 6" ties. The concrete cost difference is just a function of the volume difference - 8" core forms use 33% more concrete than 6" core forms.

If you don't need 8" core forms, just stick with 6" core forms and save that amount of concrete.  I had a 62' long basement wall with 8' of red clay backfill against one side is why I went with the 8" forms in the basement, plus it facilitated installation of a ledger to support top hung trusses for my floor system.

 For an ICF similar in design to the LiteForm Xtra, look at Quadlock.

Many of the blocks are comparable in quality, with small differences. The end result will be determined on how well you do the install, and manage the pour. While I know a lot of blocks are sold to DIY'ers, I will always say use caution....concrete is heavy, expensive to screw up, and you cannot un-pour it. Like pushing a chain up-hill.

I have just finished our 108th ICF home and probably 40+ commercial projects, so I am a shade past novice, and I will will assure you the best investment or if you prefer, insurance you can take out is paying an experienced ICF installer of contractor for a few days of his time. Once to check your install, and then be there for the pour. The brand of block is not nearly as important as the quality of the work.

And as a few here know, I use BuildBlock, and if I did not, Fox would be the next choice. I do not have time to assemble blocks and the strong points for screws in BB forms are a solid reason I stay with them...and they are in Oklahoma as I am. Good luck.

kenbw77 - are you building if so where? location has an impact on it as well, most of the block systems ship ALOT of air, you are paying alot for that so its important to know what ICF manufacturing facilities are around, i have been building strictly ICF over 12 years nothing is wrong with knockdown systems, its all about the project, i have been on commercial jobs where using a block system was a nightmare usually because of the rebar requirements, where it would have been a piece of cake with block systems, yeah i am so tired of hearing the block system people knocking the knockdowns-if they are so bad ---WHY IS EVERY BLOCK COMPANY STARTING TO MAKE KNOCK DOWNS!! the point being it really depends on your project some projects would be easy with blocks others would be easier with panel systems or knockdowns, it just depends and another myth is bigger is not always better, big blocks work ok if you have alot of long runs and less windows/doors/mechanical chassis etc, but no so much if you have alot of openings. Finally alot of times the installer doesnt even get to choose the system. so they might charge more for say a vertical ICF system? When people starting pushing one type of ICF system it just kind of makes me wonder if they have every tried anything different or if they are the "we have always done it this way " kind of mentality?

I'm building next summer in Northeast Ohio. Right now Build block is looking pretty good to me. The company has given me the name and number of a distributor really close to me although I have not been able to reach him. Has not answered his phone and has not yet returned any of my messages. So, I'll have to see, maybe there is another rep in the area since this one does not seem interested in selling product for a 2,500 sq. ft. workshop and 3,000 sq. ft. home with basement. Go figure?

Posted By billnaegeli on 05 Jul 2015 10:01 PM
. . . i have been building strictly ICF over 12 years nothing is wrong with knockdown systems, its all about the project, i have been on commercial jobs where using a block system was a nightmare usually because of the rebar requirements, where it would have been a piece of cake with block systems, yeah i am so tired of hearing the block system people knocking the knockdowns-if they are so bad ---WHY IS EVERY BLOCK COMPANY STARTING TO MAKE KNOCK DOWNS!! the point being it really depends on your project some projects would be easy with blocks others would be easier with panel systems or knockdowns,

You said that it would have been a nightmare with a block system but with a block system it was a piece of cake? Also, isn't rebar alway required? Except maybe if one uses Helix? From what I understand others have found that knock down blocks are more prone to bulge with the concrete. If you have found that to not be true, I would like to know whose block you are using. Of course it would be an advantage if one needs to ship a distance to use the knock down ones.

yeah sorry i meant some applications are easier with panel systems or knockdowns, it just all depends on the rebar configuration and openings etc, job specific.
i have used BuildBlock, it works fine, the owner had the same problem you are having with finding an installer, thats how we got the project, seems BuildBlock is really good at selling directly to the owner but not so good at dealing with their installers. You always use rebar in ICF's no different than any other poured wall application, its just that some applications require alot of rebar, alot of rebar, for example what do you do when its a 16" block like buildblock and they specify horizontals at 12" or even 6", you can do it but its a bit involved, or what do you do if you they only want foam on one side of the wall, i.e. elevator shafts, its a bit involved. so every job has its own dynaimics, but for what your doing it should be ok , just make sure your architect knows the block system and make it easier for your installers and you for that matter. Ohio i like it i was born in Dayton

Can I get some sq. ft. pricing on just the various ICF's? For example: Build Block is 16" x 48”, @ 5.33 sq. ft. per block, the starting price of 8” Build Block @ $ 23.87/ $ 4.46 sq. ft., plus 2” ThermalSert @ $ 4.50 panel/ $ .85 sq. ft. So for an R30 block the cost is $ 5.32 per sq. ft. and the cost decreases depending on the volume. For the person that paid about $ 2 per sq.ft., that is a big difference? I don't have the time to contact several ICF companies and go through all their hoops like get a number from them of a rep in the area and play phone tag just to get a comparative pricing.

i take it you are doing the install yourself ? because if you are looking for an installer have them price the block and everything it will probably come out cheaper than you trying to buy everything - thinking you can save some money like that usually doesnt pan out too well? just my experience.
but you should be able to get a good block for about 2.5-3.50 sqft a panel will be 3-4 p/sqft, depending on the sytsem some can be 4-5p/sqft

ask the local ICF guy what systems they use? first trying to spec a block before you have the installer is really - in my opinion putting the cart in front of the horse-but none of the manufacturers will tell you that.
once you find a reputable installer then you can start talking about systems.

The problem with buying the block and then looking for an installer is that you have now taken away part of the installer's margin. If he's a good installer, he represents repeat business to the manufacturer, you don't. He will get a better price on the materials than you will. If you buy the material yourself then try to get a low price on the install, you will have started out by annoying the good installer and you will end up with a cheap installer. Unless you're doing a DIY, find an good installer and let him do his job. Your job is to do the due diligence on the installer. Get references and then check them.