ICFfam
New Member
Posts:69
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| 24 Jun 2007 09:43 AM |
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We just last week had the Certainteed Cedarboards vinyl siding product installed over our ICF block. House wrap was only used in the wooden gables or other wood sections.
We have a 5/12 roof line that comes up to a wall (one section of the home is one-story whereas the rest is two story). The roofer flashed along the entire length where this wall and roof meet. Trouble is, when it poured the other day, water came in along this wall. The roofer tells me that this happened since vinyl siding by nature lets some water in behind it and that wrap was necessary over the flashing to allow this minimal water to come out over the shingles.
I had read on this forum that wrap wasn't necessary, but now I am wondering whether it is in those cases where a roof line meets a wall, like in the example that I have with living space under that roof or in my other example where my porch roof meets the wall. Thoughts?
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icfcontractor
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 24 Jun 2007 10:29 AM |
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ICFfam,
I am not quite following your post. Are you talking about a dormer that has roofing on one or both sides? Where did the water enter at? Also I have very heard that properly installed vinyl side allows water behind it. If this is a dormer how was the joint between the wall and the roof flashed ie one continuous piece of flashing or step flashing?
ICF Contractor |
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ICFfam
New Member
Posts:69
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| 24 Jun 2007 11:19 AM |
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Take a look at the pics below. The water is entering on the backside of the home where the lower roof meets the wall, along the entire length. It may also be that water is entering at the front porch/wall connection as well, though we have no way of knowing that (thereby leaving us concerned that the porch decking will one day rot) |
 Attachment: Rear elevation2.JPG
Attachment: front elevation2.JPG
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woulfcc
Basic Member
Posts:147
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| 24 Jun 2007 04:42 PM |
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From what I see you have a flashing problem not icf or sidling .
I see 3 points that either have a dormer or valley over them and that will put more water in those areas.
I cut a gap in to the foam with my flashing and glue it in the gap about 6" the roof line( I live in snow country) |
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| Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin |
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PatrickT
Basic Member
Posts:157
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| 24 Jun 2007 06:32 PM |
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Woulfcc,
I'll bet you are correct but..vinyl siding is hardly water proof. just think how the corners work. You have a 1.3/4" pc catching all the ends. A driving rain gets behind the siding and you hope it stays with in the 1 3/4" pc as it falls. Kind of like skipping the step flashing and going for a 10' pc of bent AL. The windows are just as bad.
This can all be solved with additional flashing behind all the siding conponents. Vinyl siding should be pulled. It's easy and will go right back up. Flash the corners with AL and make sure it goes to the drip channel at the bottom. Flash the roofing behind the siding.
Patrick T |
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PatrickT
Basic Member
Posts:157
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| 24 Jun 2007 06:32 PM |
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Woulfcc,
I'll bet you are correct but..vinyl siding is hardly water proof. just think how the corners work. You have a 1.3/4" pc catching all the ends. A driving rain gets behind the siding and you hope it stays with in the 1 3/4" pc as it falls. Kind of like skipping the step flashing and going for a 10' pc of bent AL. The windows are just as bad.
This can all be solved with additional flashing behind all the siding conponents. Vinyl siding should be pulled. It's easy and will go right back up. Flash the corners with AL and make sure it goes to the drip channel at the bottom. Flash the roofing behind the siding.
Patrick T |
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icfcontractor
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 24 Jun 2007 07:52 PM |
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ICFfam,
I agree with my collegues here. You have a flashing problem not a siding or house wrap problem. Maybe you could describe the strom a little better. I get that it was a lot of rain but was it excesively gust or blowing the wind sideways??? Because looking at your picture you may have a leak around your windows that is getting in behind the vinyl.
ICF Contractor |
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ICFfam
New Member
Posts:69
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| 25 Jun 2007 01:37 AM |
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Thanks for the replies, guys. It was a heavy, heavy rain storm that caused the water. So heavy, in fact, two tornadoes were associated with it, one a mile away and another two miles away. Winds were pushing 70mph.
That said, no water got in that I could see around any of the windows. It only leaked in the back. A few days prior we had just a hard rain. This time, it leaked as well, but only by the left-most arrow in the "rear elevation" shot. I went out on the roof after that sotorm and poured a gallon of water on the siding on this short wall and sure enough, water came through.
Any and all ideas appreciated. At present, my roofer is blaming the sider for not putting up Tyvek. The sider plans to come look at it tomorrow. |
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FlaICF
New Member
Posts:78
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| 25 Jun 2007 09:02 AM |
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Icffam,
As a FL guy who sees a lot of rain, my 2 cents is that is a flashing problem. Possibly the roofer did what he normally would do on a conventional structure and was unaware that more detail would be needed to flash foam. I have seen specific flashing details such as the metal would be at least 6" tall at the seam and would cut a riglet into the foam,fasten the flashing to the webs, foam in the flashing and that apply a self adhereing membrane or combination membrane/latex waterstop system over that joint. Did you see the flashing installed?
Are the windows wood buck and did they get waterproofed prior to siding? It could be an issue but in this case maybe not. Water is a tough problem to track. Good Luck! GR |
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ICFfam
New Member
Posts:69
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| 25 Jun 2007 11:05 AM |
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I did see the flashing installed, but didn't know/think to check the details on it. I do not believe that anything "special" was done to flash it. I do believe that the metal is protruding vertically at least the 6" you mention. AFAIK, the flashing is not attached to the foam in any way. The roofer, in fact, mentioned that "of course" the roof would leak at joints like this until the home was sided.
From your post do I gather that the cutting in of the flashing into the foam, glueing it on, and then applying a peel & stick membrane on the foam and then down several inches over the flashing is standard for foam applications? |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 25 Jun 2007 08:13 PM |
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ICFfam,
Picture in your mind a section view of the ICF wall and the wall/roof joint. Now think about water running down the surface of the foam. How is that water going to be directed away from the foam and to the roof surface? You can now see why the others are writing about putting the upper edge of the flashing into the foam and using sealers to make that connection water tight. If your siding man just put the flashing flat against the foam there is no water tight path from the foam surface to the roof surface.
Were the windows put in by the same guy? If so, your flashing at the top of the windows is probably the same, which means, not good.
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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ICFfam
New Member
Posts:69
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| 26 Jun 2007 12:56 PM |
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The roofer put his flashing up prior to the shingles going on. The framer installed Tyvek over the wood gable areas and left it hanging down perhaps 12" below over onto the face of the foam. The sider installed no additional flashing, just his product.
The windows were put in by the framer. The bucks are just 2x12AC2. The framer just set the windows using the integrated nailing fin on the windows to attach them to the bucks. He then put up Protecto Wrap on the face of this connection. He told me that I'd want to spray low-expanding foam into the air gap between the window and the window bucks from the inside to serve as the water barrier and that nothing else was necessary. True or false? |
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FlaICF
New Member
Posts:78
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| 26 Jun 2007 01:28 PM |
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ICFfam,
The flashing detail is important and why it is overlooked alot I will never understand. The method I described is one that has been used by builders/subs in our area. It seems to have worked and I try to pass info along as I have experienced it. Remember latex based products only because materials with petroleum base will eat the foam.
Hopefully your window detailing was done to avoid any issues. GR |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 26 Jun 2007 01:32 PM |
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If the sider did nothing to integrate the roof flashing into the foam of the wall, you have a problem. You may have to pull siding off to correct it.
The window flashing may be OK, but I would be a little bit leery. I think the framer should have wrapped something like that protecto over the buck and onto the foam before putting in the windows. As least that's what I'm planning on doing on my house. That way any water that gets behind the window fin will have a way to run down and out and not soak the buck. I not sure I would want to trust the nail fins to be 100% water tight, especially at the upper corners. The foam between the frame and buck will help. You need that to block air infiltration anyway. Is there a path for water that gets behind the nailer to drain away below the window? The protecto over the nail fin should give you good protection, and any water that gets behind will only be incidental. If you have trim above the window you really need to have flashing above it, again anchored into the foam, to redirect water that would otherwise work its way to the backside of the trim.
I've been reading various forums for six months now while designing and getting ready to build my own ICF house. I've come to have a much greater appreciation for the issues regarding water intrusion, both as liquid and vapor, into the exterior finish of the house. It's more complicated than what one would first think. I especially like the admonition to build the wall system to shed water, not stop water. That's because you can shed it completely, but you cannot absolutely stop it.
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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FlaICF
New Member
Posts:78
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| 26 Jun 2007 02:06 PM |
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In an effort to help, foam is not a water stop. It is an air stop. Caulking, flashing, sealants membranes and coatings are water stop methods. The framer did as he would on a frame structure to cover the fin and bridge over to the plane of the wall which would have some type of house wrap. Bridging the PT 2x to the foam and having the material chosen bond to the foam is the key on ICFs. Then the trim or finish application is addressed. We have worked with builders who were required to use a material to create a watershed field prior to a siding or stucco application. There are arguements as to the need for this step. The builder or sub is respondsible for his work and the performance of the finished product. Hope we are helping some.
No offense but ANY water intrusion should not be considered incidental and avoided.GR |
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ICFfam
New Member
Posts:69
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| 26 Jun 2007 02:44 PM |
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I agree that any water intrusion is unacceptable. The question is what to do NOW. I have a sided house that leaks. Possible places to place fault: a. Me. Should I have known as the GC what the proper steps are? b. Roofer. Is this the roofers fault for not cutting his flashing on the back side of the house where we KNOW it is leaking and then sealing it in preparation for the sider and ditto for the front porch? c. Sider. Is it the siders fault that the windows were not flashed more than with the application of the Protecto Wrap and that the area above the back of the house and the wraparound porch were only flashed in the typical manner (i.e. should he have known and then either required that additional measures be taken by others or have taken them himself before applying his siding?)? d. Framer. Is it the framers fault around the windows for not doing more than nailing the windows in and placing the Protecto Wrap on them? e. Some combination of the above. Is the consensus that the BEST course of action is to pull all of the siding down around the windows and above the roof lines that meet walls, flash correctly, and then re-install the siding? As far as flashing around the windows, the comment about getting behind the integrated water drainage lines has me concerned - no way would I trust that the Protecto sealed that up tight. Should that stuff either come off and be replaced or be at least covered with something like Blue Seal? |
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FlaICF
New Member
Posts:78
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| 26 Jun 2007 04:11 PM |
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As with many ICF jobs, the apparent lack of knowledge in general has put this problem to the forfront and since you asked, (e) would be my pick. This is not insurmountable but now requires patience and cooperation by all to solve the problem. As the old adage goes" don't become the problem, be the solution".
I would say that pulling the siding off and working on the obvious is a must to resolve the present water issues. The window details and flashing shoul be addressed to avoid fuure issues.
I am not familiar with BlueSeal and all its applications. Products like Sealoflex or Hydrostop are 2 that I am familiar with and are available thru roofing supply companies in our FL area. And we have used. Look at the web info and look at WindLock to see if they have any products that may help.
GR |
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icfcontractor
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 27 Jun 2007 12:00 AM |
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ICFfam,
It looks like you have gotten some very sound advice here. FlaICF is right on point with being part of the solution not part of the problem. As a contractor for many years I have run into all types and typically the person who becomes unreasonable, immovable, and angry never comes up with a good solution that benifits all. I believe there is a win win solution to every problem but everyone has to be willing to give.
I have a couple of questions for you before I can advise you on next coarse of action.
1. Since you are the GC, how did you qualify your subs? Experience, references, lowest bid, phonebook, advertisement, and/or availability?
2. Did you and your subs have experience with ICF and the local codes, regulations, and/or special conditions required for ICF?
3. Being the GC, what did you do to educate yourself on the different building methods?
4. Are your subs members of your local builders association or NAHB?
I hate to see any building have issues but again FlaICF is correct I don't think this is insurmountable.
ICF Contractor |
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ICFfam
New Member
Posts:69
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| 27 Jun 2007 02:57 AM |
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To answer your questions:
1. Subs were qualified by experience, references, and price. Availability hasn't been an issue with any of my subs to this point. Subs were located by either word of mouth reference or the phonebook.
2. I was new to ICF prior to starting this project. While I am the GC, a more accurate term would be owner/builder (I am not a builder by trade, this is my own future home). There are no local codes. No inspectors. No nothing. My primary knowledge of what to do when came from my ICF supplier, who I discovered somewhat early on likes to take shortcuts that I just don't feel comfortable with.
3. This is a long, long story. I heavily, heavily researched SIPS and ICF to determine which of the two I'd end up going with. I have to admit that I didn't research flashing - everyone that I spoke to locally said that what I was doing for the window installation and the general flashing was right on target. I didn't know otherwise until it rained.
4. Some of my subs are members, some aren't.
The roofer in question came with great (stellar) references. He seems very knowledgeable and put me at ease from the beginning.
The sider in question I was initially uncomfortable with, but the largest builder in the metro uses him almost exclusively and had only very, very good things to say about him. The sider seemed to know quite a lot about ICF's and even holds the patent on the screw that Certainteed now specifies for use with their products in ICF homes.
The framer is the one that I knew the least about. My neighbor used him and liked his work. I reviewed his work and saw no issues with it.
Now sure how this helps, but let me know what questions this leaves you with.
I think I'll be asking my sider to pull off the lowest course of siding above all windows and roof lines that meet walls in order to have him install or modify the installation of the Aluminum flashing such that it is embedded into the foam and then sealed. Does anything need to be done with the sides or bottoms of the windows? |
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FlaICF
New Member
Posts:78
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| 27 Jun 2007 10:37 AM |
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Icffam, Did you say where you are building? Your choice of ICF was, in my opinion, the right one. It will benefit you in the long run.It seems you are tracking on the right path to solve the problems. Your subs seem to be experienced and if field tested will be able to create the corrected installation of the materials to your needs. If not spec'ed then good old fashion Yankee ingenuity and common sense should prevail. Question: aluminum versus galvanized flashing? We use galv., usually 26ga., for these applications on tie- ins, valleys and the like.
Windows should be lap sealed all the way around to avoid water in any part of the wall penetration. Good Luck! GR |
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