Waterfurnace Envision and Support Problems
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GreenSWOhioUser is Offline
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29 Jan 2012 02:56 PM
After 14 months I am still having problems with my Waterfurnace Envision 4 ton unit. Working with Waterfurnace I have had 2 companies inspect and adjust the furnace. At this point they have me power cycling the furnace daily to clear a water flow fault light and reading outgoing water temperatures.
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29 Jan 2012 02:57 PM
After 14 months I am still having problems with my Waterfurnace Envision 4 ton unit. Working with Waterfurnace I have had 2 companies inspect and adjust the furnace. At this point they have me power cycling the furnace daily to clear a water flow fault light and reading outgoing water temperatures.

There are lots of details behind my story. I posted some of them on this blog last year. A recap:

I had the furnace installed by Geothermal Solutions in December 2010. They worked on my previous 4 ton Waterfurnace and did excellent work. They assured me that the $13,000 I would pay for the 4 ton unit was the total cost; that included a new furnace, new pumps but used the existing pond loop. They were familiar with my loop and assured me it did not need to be replaced.

When I received my February electric bill I knew something was wrong as it was about $300 more than I expected – temperatures were similar to the previous year & I expected similar bills. The Envison was running on electric backup since it was installed. I did not see the Call For Service warning on the Waterfurnace logoed thermostat (dark gray letters on a dark blue background).

Geothermal Solutions worked on the furnace from Feb thru March when they went out of business. They did a series of test, assuring me the pond loop was OK. The water flow fault came on a day or so after each of their attempts, sometimes when the outside temperature was as high as 45F. Geothermal solutions:
- measured temp differences on pond loop (32F in, 27 out)
- measured waterflow at 14 GPM
- replaced the filters
- replaced the thermistor
- flushed the pond loop twice.
- tried to reproduce the fault by disconnecting the water pumps from the electric; the fault came on at the proper temperature.
- suspected there was a problem with the “system” board, but could not find a test to validate their suspicion.
-( I began posting on this blog in Feb 2011.)
- Added “an ounce or so” of refrigerant to the Envison.
- had me power cycle the furnace many times to clear the fault.
- disconnected one of the pumps to get the waterflow down to 12 GPM

On 3/29 WF_Inc communicated with me on this blog. Waterfurnace employee David Higgins (I think he is the Ohio Sales Rep) recommended a local technician (let’s call him Don) with whom he had lots of good experience. The tech began working on my unit in April, when temperatures rise in SW Ohio. He:
- reconnected both pumps.
- measured temp difference (31F in, 27 out) and said they were perfect.
- assured me the pond loop was in good shape & adequate for the demand.
- said the pressure in the refrigerant loop was way too high (GeoThermal added refrigerant as explained above).
- so he just bled some off till it measured OK.
- disabled Electric (stage 3) heat unless there is a hard lockout on the geothermal unit.

May
- the air conditioner didn’t work when I turned it on. Don:
- said there was something wrong with a valve
- said sometimes there were problems with the insulation around the valve – the valve freezes up. He removed the insulation.
- set up the Envison so it would do air conditioning, told me he would order a new valve & install it before I needed heating.

September
- Don bled out the refrigerant R-410A and “weighed it back in.”

The Envision seemed to work OK until January. Although really I thought the unit was fixed & did not pay much attention to it or my electric bills. In December I had 24 Solar Panels installed & began looking at the electric bills more closely. I have a Waterfurnace logoed thermostat which cloaks warning messages.

January – Waterflow fault is showing again. Don returns and:
- says the water flow rate is too high, he turns a valve on the outgoing pump until the flow is 12 GPM.
- power cycled the furnace
- the waterflow light was off when I went to bed, on the next morning.
- I talked to Don the next morning. He told me that Waterfurnace tech support told him the pond loop is undersized. He does not do pond loop work – I should find someone else.

1/5/12 I talk to Waterfurnace tech support. They verify that I replaced a 4 ton unit with a 4 ton unit. They tell me the loop should be adequate. (I know there may be expections – but the techs readings indicated to them the loop was OK).

Waterfurnace recommends I get a 2nd opinion from another local company, let’s call them Nick. Nick, the new and current company
- measures temp drop – it is 4F they tell me that is in line with the specifications.
- turn the valve on the outgoing waterpump so full flow is allowed.
- do a few tests and tell me that the flow rate is OK.
- tell me the loop may be silted up – but everything checks out OK.

- Nick tells me they are going to order a new “system” board
1/27/12 – they install a new “status” board, the waterflow light come on immediately.
- they power cycle the furnace & the fault light goes out.

Nick tells me they don’t know what else to do. The system is fault free at this instance, and they can’t fix something that is not broken. They have to be here when the system faults in order to have a chance to diagnose it. Nick tells me to contact Waterfurnace to have them send a technician to my house – maybe Waterfurnace can figure it out.

I call Waterfurnace, they tell me they can’t help. They can only work with Nick. I leave voice mails for Nick on Friday afternoon but they don’t call back.

The last 2 evenings since Nick was here the outgoing water temperatures were about 25F and the Envision was not in a fault state. It is in a fault state in the morning.

On Saturday it was OK at 8 a.m. and faulted at 10:30 a.m. I power cycled it and it was OK for the rest of the day, outgoing temperatures in the high 20s. But it was faulted again this morning at 8. I power cycled it and it does not currently have a fault.

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29 Jan 2012 08:42 PM
Please let us know if and when a solution is found. Maybe someone on this forum can offer some suggestions. It appears now that you will have to depend upon the kindness of strangers since WaterFurnace can not help you.
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30 Jan 2012 12:47 AM
I have been a little way down this road.

A fundamental fact that does not seem to be adequately addressed here (although there are some actions in the chronicle hint at the issue):

WaterFurnace Envision water flow alarm / status is actually driven by a temperature sensor on the heat exchanger leaving REFRIGERANT line. If that refrigerant temperature drops below either 30 (well water systems) or 15 ("brine" systems - loop fluid with antifreeze) the system will fault and then trip out after 3 retries. In other words, the system assumes that low refrigerant temperature is the result of low water flow. There are valid reasons to configure the system this way, but at the expense of mis-diagnosing a low refrigerant charge situation.

The sensor used to measure this is a standard 10k Ohm thermistor, almost literally a dime a dozen. They are easy to troubleshoot - sensor should exhibit 10,000 ohms at 77*F

I chased this issue on my own and one other WF Envision package system - I worried about loop flow and scale until I realized that the sensor was looking at refrigerant, not water lines and it was being exposed to low temperatures arising from low refrigerant charge. In one case I traced the leak to bad service port schrader valves. In my own case I confess I have yet to locate the leak, despite repeated effort with soapy bubbles and a Fieldpiece leak detector. I've thrown up my hands twice now and weighed in additional R410a, 4 ounces at a time, until the system pressures and temperatures return to normal operation.

Short answer - investigate your system's refrigerant charge.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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30 Jan 2012 10:09 AM
Last night at midnight outgoing temperature on the Waterfurnace Envision was 25F. It was running on geothermal.

This morning at 7 a.m. it had a water fault. Outside temperature was 30F. I rebooted the furnace by power cycling it. I hope these daily power cycles do not shorten the life of the furnace. Although I am not sure of the value of having a geothermal furnace if it is going to run on electric all night every night.

I am going to have to go out of town. I'd like to have this thing fixed before I leave. But the reality is that since I don't want the house to freeze I have to expect that either it will be on electric all the time I am out of town or I have to have someone come to the house to power cycle it daily.

I can hear the difference between the Waterfurnace Envision running on electric and running on geothermal. It is a bit louder on geothermal. This is quite noticeable since it ran on electric most of January.

CK: the technician from "NIck's" checked the charge last week and said it was right on.

There have been 6 technicians to my house from 4 companies. Many told me they were trained at Waterfurnace's facility. While I am not a geothermal engineer, I do have a background in electronics & thought all the techs were competent, thorough and and careful. I don't have a problem with the technicians.

I wonder if the Waterfurnace Envision technology is too complex to be successful. I had a 1989 Waterfurnace that gave excellent service. I expected improvements in the intervening years. The techs tell me that unless they are present when a fault occurs they cannot diagnose the problem. If the Envision has a computer onboard why doesn't it have a fault log?

The bottom line is that I wanted a geothermal unit with an electric backup. Right now the Waterfurnace Envision runs like an electric unit with a manual geothermal backup.

joe.amiUser is Offline
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30 Jan 2012 10:41 AM
Your techs need more information. Lockouts that occur once in a blue moon are difficult to troubleshoot.
One thing that may help and continue to be beneficial would be a WEL server or other device that records and monitors operation including EWT.
I like Curts thoughts, sometimes a low temp lock-out is the product of a poor thermistor.....or as he pointed out low refrigerant flow.
Low antifreeze is another possible culprit.
Among the less likely problems are bad second board, bad pump capacitor(s) or relay (depending on how it is wired in) or air in the loop still. Achange in pond conditions (i.e. depth or circumfrence change) could make loops that worked before not work now. A bad ground to new unit or service panel will sometimes cause flaky behavior in PC boards.
I know some of these things are a rehash, but with no evidence of what is occuring when system locks out one can only speculate.
If you are running a DSH you might want to turn that off for the time being.

Curt, how long does it wait between retries? Long enough for a heat exchanger to thaw out for instance?
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
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www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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30 Jan 2012 10:55 AM
Posted By engineer on 30 Jan 2012 12:47 AM

If that refrigerant temperature drops below either 30 (well water systems) or 15 ("brine" systems - loop fluid with antifreeze) the system will fault and then trip out after 3 retries.
This (30°F vs 15°F) is set via a DIP switch.  Do you know how your switch is set?  Is there antifreeze in your closed (I assume it is closed) pond loop?  If so, do you know the freeze protection it provides?
Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.
GreenSWOhioUser is Offline
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30 Jan 2012 11:08 AM
Joe:
- the lockouts are occurring daily.
- The WEL server sounds like an excellent idea. Why doesn't Waterfurnace include one? My solar panel inverters have something similar to report energy production & I expect it is an excellent advertising tool. They also record inverter and panel issues. It sounds like it would be a lot of work to install at this point.
- the tech told me he replaced the thermistor twice, he then demonstrated its proper operation by disconnecting electric to the pumps and letting the temp drop until the unit faulted.
- the pond loop is protected to 15F. This was verified with a hydrometer.
- the unit does have a DSH - I don't know how to turn it off or why it would be a suspect.

engineer
- I have a closed loop system protected to 15F.
- the unit is not faulting at 15F, and the one tech demonstrated that it did fault at 15F, so I expect the DIP is set correctly.

Thanks for the comments,

GreenSWOhio
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30 Jan 2012 11:55 AM
The DSH takes some of the heating capacity. If your loops are marginal, the load reduction may help.
WEL server is aftermarket, do not know of a manufacturer that has a logger standard.
Installers could but it would add $1,000+ per system installed and people already squawk about the high cost of geo.
I would hope you are set for closed loop on the new board, but geome makes a good suggestion.
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
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www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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30 Jan 2012 12:28 PM
Here are some comments to hopefully help on what appears to be a difficult enough situation such that even the local, WaterFurnace trained techs appear to be stumped too.

Regarding the Web Energy Logger (WEL): you wouldn't think that the owner would need to resort to something like this unless there were many other objectives in mind, including simply interest on the owner's part on how things work.  The WEL is certainly capable of providing a lot of recorded data, and interpretation, and historical context, all of which may be needed to fix the problem.  Still, it seems strange to me that an owner would need to install a WEL versus a repair technician finding the problem(s).

An (advanced) example of the WEL showing how 3 and 5 ton WF Envision geothermal heat pumps work is here: http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043/ (way more information that the typical owner desires.)  Note that on the geothermal diagram it shows right where the freeze sensor is on the refrigerant line (that signals lockout if the R410a refrigerant drops below 30°F or 15° (depending on DIP switch setting)).

Here's what's going on with the refrigerant temp at the freeze sensor's location, over a 12 month period, for a 3 ton Envision:



Some key comments:

(This is for a warm season location, so you're not going to see the refrigerant line temp (green 'line') get anywhere near 30° or 15°.  Summer time is the challenging season, where keeping the refrigerant line temp cool enough is the challenge each year.)

The refrigerant line temp is going to be colder than your EWT when the Heat Pump (HP) is in heat mode, as seen above.

The refrigerant line temp will mirror Entering Water Temp (EWT - blue), as seen above.  So if your EWT is 27°, your refrigerant line at the Freeze Sensor (FS) will be downwards toward 15°.

The refrigerant line temp is volatile.  It's going to move around a lot as a function of the EWT.  All it takes is for a 'dip' or two below 15° and your FS is going to signal a lockout.

Some suggestions:

1. You've got to affirm your lockout sensing circuitry is working properly.  I know you've already replaced the FS twice, but, I'd go back and triple check everything again with this circuit very carefully.

2. If all is fine for the FS circuitry, then you're dropping below 15° refrigerant temp.  I'd go triple check that the DIP switch is working, and indeed the control monitor is set to 15° and not 30°.  My guess is you are definitely set at 15° because otherwise, at 30°, you wouldn't be able to run, day or night, and that lockout would be immediate.  Still, test this to make sure.

3. If after the first 2 suggestions, you still have a problem, then fundamentally the problem is 15° refrigerant temperature at the FS.  This is where the refrigeration exerts are going to have to figure out why.

With respect to the WEL:

The WEL is goint to clearly show what's going on, including numbers and analysis to pinpoint where the problem is.  I'm confident that a well trained tech using a WEL on your system would figure out what's wrong.  This would be a very advanced tool in the tech's 'tool bag.'

But, it certainly strikes me as overkill for the owner to have to put one in, if the sole mission is to fix a poorly performing geothermal HP.  That said, if you want any helpful comment doing so, just holler.  It's very easy to install - just 'nail' it to the wall, connect it to your LAN, and connect temp sensors to the right places, and you're done.  For your scenario, the WEL's going to cost you about $500, since all you need is temperature sensors (the WEL accommodates electricity, pressure, water flow, and many other types of measurements).  That's a lot of money, but, I have no doubt it would show you or a competent tech exactly where to focus up on.

Best regards,

Bill

Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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30 Jan 2012 04:18 PM
GreenSWOhio, We are confused by your comment that WaterFurnace cannot help you. It is our understanding that our field technician has been in contact with your contractor and they will be visiting your home next week. WaterFurnace International, Inc.
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30 Jan 2012 05:33 PM
WF_Inc, thanks for the response.

Last Thursday my current contractor told me to call Waterfurnace & schedule one of your technicians to do a site visit. He said he could not figure out what was wrong. After he power cycled the Envision everything looked normal. If I wanted WF to come out I'd have to fill out a form.

I called Waterfurnace customer support and they said they couldn't help me. They could only work with the contractor (the one I'm calling Nick is actually several people). Nick would have to fill out the forms. I called Nick back that afternoon and haven't heard that anything was arranged with Waterfurnace until I saw your note above. (Today Nick's receptionist told me the technician is dealing with a family emergency - I understand and concur that family emergencies are a higher priority than a furnace that needs to be power cycled every morning.)

Additionally, Waterfurnace had opportunity to know that I was having a problem with a new furnace since shortly after it was installed. Look at the number of bills charged to my warranty. Is this typical? I am using technicians your representative recommended. The same rep who does not return my phone calls.

I have lots of details if you want them. I didn't start this thread to grip about the past; and I hate being a pest. I made the case I made because I want the 14 month old Envison to work as well as the 1989 Waterfurnace. I'd like it to work better, but it'd have to be a whole lot better to make up for the 1st 14 months, the high electric bills, and the time I've taken off work to meet technicians at my house.

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31 Jan 2012 09:52 AM
GreenSWOhio,

We feel there may be some confusion. It is not that we cannot or do not want help you. Your request to us was that we send a WaterFurnace representative to your home. We are unable to visit your home without receiving a site visit request from a WaterFurnace dealer. We are a manufacturer and do not have a contractor’s license. Therefore, when we visit a home, we must go with the contractor under their license and insurance.

We understand your concerns and appreciate your position. This is why we have agreed to send our field technician to ensure that your WaterFurnace equipment is operating to manufacturer’s specifications. We are more than happy to work with you and your contractor in finding a resolution.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.
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01 Feb 2012 10:29 AM
yes there ae cheaper recording devices- i.e. TED. I don't have a WEL or TED in my tool box as it hasn't been necessary for me to sort out a problem.......yet.
Joe Hardin
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05 Feb 2012 08:33 AM
Sensors, system, pond, etc. May be all fine. With my WF they had to upgrade software/board to fix similar sounding idiot light problem. Overall (4 years - early Envision) I have been very pleased with the system. Regards.
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06 Feb 2012 06:00 PM
The situation with my Envision is not just an idiot light. The furnace drops into electric mode & I am heating with expensive electric rather than the geothermal resources I wanted to use.

The company I called Nick (above) told me that they were having problems getting paid by Waterfurnace; they are sure they can fix my furnace but I'd have to pay the $800 - $1,000; Nick said the problem is in the refrigerant loop. Nick is not going to do whatever they'd have to do to get a Waterfurnace tech to look at my furnace. They said they can't afford to continue losing money. They were very apologetic.

I asked Waterfurnace for their view of the situation with Nick; they explained their warranty and their use of flat fees for repair cost coverage. They suggested I find another dealer.

The Waterflow light has not come on since the outside temperature rose last week.

I appreciate that it is hard to fix a problem when the symptoms are not present. But I am going to get in touch with one of the companies and start the process again. I don't want to let this drag on for another year.

Waterfurnace's support model is not working for me. If I can find a contractor to look at my furnace it will be the fourth contractor to work on this unit. Presumably the contractor who sold me the unit made some margin of profit on the sale and the installation. That money is unavailable to the follow on contractors. They can walk away from me because they have no commitment to me, and I understand they have to balance their books at the end of the day.
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07 Feb 2012 12:33 AM
Where in OH? Heading to fort Jackson SC next week for sons graduation. Must pass through OH.
Joe Hardin
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07 Feb 2012 10:30 AM
Joe - I am in the South West corner of the state - North West of Cincinnati, far from any highway, state route, or easy access. I appreciate the implied offer, but I really do not want to have to depend on kindness to get this resolved. The Envision is under warranty.

Waterfurnace is not refusing to help me; they are just not helping me directly and getting to their help seems to be much more difficult than getting to my house in rural Ohio. The Envision has not faulted in almost a week after faulting several days in a row when it was cooler.

I have contacted contractor number 4. I will call it Williams! We are trying to set something up, but so far nothing definite. The Envision does a fine job keeping the house warm when it is warm outside.

And I can only take so many days off work. I may decide that having Nick repair the Envision is more economical than getting Waterfurnace to fix the problem. Nick seemed to have a very good technician. He convinced me he knows what is wrong ; he just can't afford to fix it at a loss.

I also have several kerosene heaters to backup the Waterfurnace Envision in case it does get cold again this winter.

GreenSWOhio
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07 Feb 2012 02:55 PM
I am at home today. The Envision was fine this morning, but sometime in the last 7 hours the Waterflow fault tripped. It is 35F outside - and the furnace has not been running that much. The outgoing water temperature (Nick left a prob in the port) is 26F. Of course I don't know what it was when the Waterfurnace faulted. It seems reasonable to think it couldn't have changed too much. And I may have got it right when it faulted. I checked the furnace because it seemed to me that the sound the furnace was making changed a bit.

I am meeting a new Heating/Cooling guy tomorrow.

I am still waiting for the visit from the Waterfurnace rep that WF_Inc said would occur last week.
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08 Feb 2012 08:50 AM
GreenSWOhio,

We have been in contact with your contractor, and according to them the charges they quoted were to address something done by another contractor. The WaterFurnace warranty is to protect against manufacturing defects; unfortunately, this warranty does not cover a contractor’s workmanship.

In regards to the site visit, we are a manufacturer, and do not have a contractor’s license. Therefore, when we visit a home, we must go with the contractor under their license and insurance. According to the contractor you were working with, they have decided not to work on your equipment. We understand your concerns, and are more than happy to work with you and your contractor in finding a resolution; however, we are unable to visit without receiving a request from a WaterFurnace dealer.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.
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