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joe.ami
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Posts:1419
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| 07/13/2009 8:02 PM |
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Some folks do not wish to be satisfied. Others simply wish to vent.
While I'm not sure that the author qualifies as either, lack of response does cause diminishing credibility.
As my sequal thread states, I'm reluctant to blame manufacturers for problems caused by contractors. It is also worth noting that I am not a WF dealer.
Check references folks. It may be that original installer no longer sells WF because WF did ferret out a hack or....who knows.
Meanwhile it is difficult to inspire some one who didn't do the job (and profit from it) to do warranty work. I am a service agent for some ASHP pool heaters. They pay me a cut rate to service these. I make sure to race out and fix these products just as soon as everything else on my schedule is completed.
We have a simultaneous complaint about a CM product in which the author did respond to our inquiries and I think we have made some headway in system evaluation. Many of his complaints are due to contractor folly (based on info provided) cold weather and expectation. Main thing was an exchange of info that at least offers other points of view and a chance to help.
Marlene if you are out there we'll still try to help. There's nothing we can do without feedback.
J |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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Marlene
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New Member
Posts:6
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| 07/23/2009 10:08 AM |
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| Hi Gregj,
I have not had the chance to respond to the messages due to unforseen family circumstances. Truly I did not anticipate the replies I've received. If I get this issue resolved I will be extremely happy. I have no hidden agenda to waste anyones time and come on here and bash companies for no reason. My time allowance has no room for that, I'm a single mom and work long hours folks and I really need this resolved before the next winter hits. I'm not doing the 2 duvets, 3 blankets, long sleeves and a heavy pullover just to get to sleep this upcoming year. I don't want to gain anymore knowledge than an Hvac guy. I just want it fixed : ) and don't care if I have to pay someone again. I just thought I could come on here and get more or less a referal rather than arbitrarily pick someone from the list...someone that can actually fix the problem I'm having. Kindest Regards to everyone who is trying to help. |
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Marlene
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Posts:6
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| 07/23/2009 10:17 AM |
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| Hi Joe.ami,
I apologize for not following up with the responses but had some family circumstances to look after. At this point in time there is no more warranty so its not a warranty issue. I've paid everyone who's even attempted work. The last ones said maybe its the Grundig .... I really don't want anymore experiments I just NEED it fixed before winter. I did have a heat/loss calculation done before it was installed to determine the ductwork, but I'm going to be replacing some windows and doors so I should get that done before spending the bucks on the heat/loss calculations I would think. I was wondering if maybe I should just upgrade to a bigger unit, I upgraded it by 1/2 ton to accomodate the hwt ... maybe its just not adequate???? Would the old heat/loss calculations still be good??? they would give you a rough idea anyway... let me know...kindest regards |
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Marlene
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New Member
Posts:6
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| 07/23/2009 10:28 AM |
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| Hi SR,
The last fellow said the heat exchanger is working properly but who knows.
The system was purged and flushed and funny but I've actually gone done unscrewed the panel, shut off all power and cleaned out the drain which was clogged and ran clean water thru.
As far as the water Temperature egress ??? dont know. glow rate in GPM ... they were checked by each intstaller but we had pressure valves installed on each loop to maintain equal pressure because the loops are not all equal in length and one is 380 ft while the balance are closer to 300. No detailed log of the start up procedures and spec's. Record of all service calls yes I have kept them all.
And yes you could be right that its not water furnace at all ... it could have to do with some part of the installation which is what I would like for someone to determine ... are you in the Toronto region SR????
Kindest Regards |
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Marlene
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New Member
Posts:6
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| 07/23/2009 12:24 PM |
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In response to bashing WF and in my own defense.
If they accept certain companies to represent them and are actually licenced dealers then there should be at least, at the very very least one tech who can diagnose problems at a level of expertise. When I contacted and wrote to Water Furnace with the deficencies it contained information about all the service that had been done ... everything that I have written here. If it was my company ... and I knew that someone had problems to the extent that I have had and being in the housing industry ... believe me I would know who my top notch guys are and say here's the address ... stay till the problem is resolved ... c/o the manufacturer... not that I am asking for freebies but I've paid out thousands on repairs so far and probably changed out perfectly good parts for nothing.
Water furnace in my opinion should have someone on their payroll that is capable of fixing or at diagnosing what the problem is. WHO trains the companies that are certified to represent them ... or do they just send out training video's....
I also mentioned that I am aware that they had a subdivision of homes that had contracted WF to be installed in all of their 4000 + sq ft homes. The builder then paid to have regular gas fired furnaces put in about 80 homes.... what a huge expense but they had assured me that the problem was that the loops were not dug deep enough.
I love the idea of geo heat but really should have gone with another manufacturer. In the aftermath.... ... why did water furnace not send someone out to that subdivision installation to make sure that they were being installed properly and make recommendations... on that grand of a scale... you DON'T want any problems.
I have done my due dillegence but I do not want to become a HVAC specialist ... I feel that at this point I have more knowledge about diagnostics and hvac than a normal homeowner would know about their gas fired furnace.
I am not here to bash but by far am I not knowledgeable. As far as checking references I have asked all the right questions and asked how long they have been installing and servicing Water Furnace ... not that the concept should be that much different than say CM. but com'on WF get it together. Actually maybe I should have someone that is certified by another mfr to fix the WF... lol ... maybe I'll get it fixed... shame on you WF
Getting side tracked and back to actually fixing my furnace so that the kids and I don't freeze again this winter... I would take the air temperature at the main plenum and then the out temp at the closest vent??? What should I set the thermometer to??? And at what difference from the outside temperature ??? Its about 70 - 72 F here.... so should I set it to 80F so I get it to kick into phase 3 ... how do I know when its in phase 2 and not 3... ???
How do I check the water temperature... my hwt is working good.
The last guy turned off the auxillary heat to the HWT to see if that fixed the problem but it didn't.. |
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Marlene
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 07/23/2009 12:40 PM |
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| Hi J,
I didn't ignore WF list of people to help.
Those are the ones I called that could not fix the system. I did mention that I have 2 systems working simulaneously. The one is good the other is leaving the balance of the house/ 2 of the bedrooms cold... while the good one is probably doing most if not all of the work but it can't carry the entire load so the house is cold in the winter. One of the WF guys said he did a pressure test cuz the low pressure light is on and said he could not find anything wrong and said he didn't know so I paid him and went onto the next company on the list. I had to pay the next one travel time cuz he came from over an hour away which would have been fine if he fixed it but its the still not right. I have exhausted all the local certified contractors so I had to move onto to the ones further away. |
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reagle
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 07/24/2009 9:29 AM |
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Would like to add my 2 cents to the Waterfurnace thread on my recent experience with water furnance. Just got off the phone the their director of "customer service" Mr. Waterman and was suprised to find out that waterfurnace has no authorized dealers and pretty much washed their hands from any responsibility.
Now will get down to my real "bash" of the company. I have experienced waterflow/hi temp lock outs on one of my two split units for the last couple of years and until earlier this year we found a leak in the unit itself and resolved. Well a month after finding the resolution to this problem, my compressor in the other unit starts to go bad. Have to have it replaced, but my contractor tells me waterfurnace will only composate for partial replacement of the units and the remaining $700 - $1000 dollars of the replacement cost will be my responsibility and that my best bet in overcoming the addtional cost (paid $13000 for the unit installations (not counting loops)) is to contact Waterfurnace directly.
What a mistake this was:
So I contact their "customer service" to try to get an explaination of these addtional cost, after I just paid extreme cost to get these units in and all the additional electrical cost I am incurring for running on residual system.
What kind of response do I get, "they will look at it", "there techs are looking at it" .... This went on for 1.5 months, with no initiated conversations back to me or even a call, plus bunch of lies that they are looking into it. Well I get my compressor replaced in early June, and still Waterfurnace has done nothing. No visits, no request for service records, nothing. They didn't even start requesting a site-visit from my contractor until June (After the unit is already fixed?).
So I call to talk to the Director of Customer Service today, and they admit no fault on their part and had no problems with the way this situation has been handled - Or the "lack" of handling for the last 4 months.
DO NOT BUY WATERFURNACE EQUIPMENT, IF YOU WANT WARRANTY/CUSTOMER SERVICE/QUALITY EQUIPMENT/PIECE OF MIND!!!! THEY ARE NOT THERE FOR SUPPORT OF THEIR SYSTEMS, ONLY TO MAKE THE QUICK BUCK!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS ONE OF THE WORST EXPERIENCES I HAVE EVER HAD WITH CUSTOMER SERVER!!!! |
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SEEKER84
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New Member
Posts:4
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| 08/15/2009 3:00 PM |
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| Marlene , you sound like you are living in my house, Are unit has also not worked since day one. Right now one of the units has a blinking red light and since it is the weekend we are with no AC here in Florida. Money saving !!! What a joke. we have a 3400 SQ house and are Electric Bill was 500.00 for the month of July.I am at the point that after 3 years of crap from water furnace I am about to hire a lawyer. Maybe he can get some results from this con game that Water furnace seems to be playing. One again our AC man will be out monday to try and get this piece of junk to run properly (Joke of the day). I am begining to feel as if this unit is controlling are life as we have to be her 3 to 4 days a week so the repairman can come out and tell us what has to be replaced now. I personally WARN everyone to stay way from Geo-thermal as it is nothing but a rip-off. And now water furnace is advertising a 200 tax credit.... Forget it... with this unit it will cost you much more in repairs..... |
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engineer
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1159
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| 08/16/2009 8:19 AM |
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Seeker
I'm sorry to hear you are having a miserable geo experience.
How about starting your own thread so we can try to address your system's problems. Our experience here is that 80+% of system problems stem from design or installation issues. Simple things such as air in loop lines can cripple a system |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 08/16/2009 9:17 AM |
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Oh great ... these complaints make me feel just peachy-keen now that I sent the Water Furnace contractor a big deposit yesterday and signed his proposal to authorize the installation of a 5-ton system. I did my background work on the contractor and his driller/installer. Both companies have been in business just under a century, and both have installed over two dozen Water Furnace systems. Neither company has any complaints logged with the local Better Business Bureau the past 3 years. The driller has the WaterFurnace GSC [Geotherrmal Services Contractor] training/certification, which really seems essential if you expect Water Furnace to honor any warranty problem. Afterall, the warranties do state that installation must be "in accordance with Water Furnace's published guidelines", and the GSC certification is essential for the 55 year 'No-Leak' Warranty.
Which brings me to my question --- I can't seem to get much information about the 55 year 'No-Leak; warranty. Water Furnace's customer service center and the regional rep tell me WF will warrant the ground-pipe installation for an additional fee [insurance, basically] for 55 years against any leak problem, providing the installation is done by a WF GSC certified contractor [which I have]. Water Furnace tells me I have to get the pricing and details of the warranty from my contractor. The contractor is aware of the warranty [he's the one weho told me about it], but has never provided one to a customer before and doesn't know the cost or details. The driller also knows of the warranty, but acknowledges he doesn't know the cost or details either, as no one has ever asked to have the warranty attached to any contract he's done. Both the contractor and driller are discouraging me from pursuing it.
Water Furnace has this link to a pdf page about the GSC program which mentions the warranty, but I can find nothing further.
http://www.waterfurnace.ca/Engineer/Misc%20References/GSC%20Program.pdf
Does anyone in this forum know of this warranty ... do you have an opinion on it ?? Should I consider purchasing it ? |
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geodean
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Posts:1085
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| 08/16/2009 10:20 AM |
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Posted By kj on 08/16/2009 9:17 AM
Does anyone in this forum know of this warranty ... do you have an opinion on it ?? Should I consider purchasing it ? Don't be too worried about this. If you have a good installer and driller, you will get a good system.
We repaired a loop for a homeowner with a WF system whose loop had a leak and had the 55 year warranty. The original installer was out of business.
The owner did have to do battle with WF for several years We had to dig up the loop and send pics to WF, but they paid us $12,000 to replace part of his loop.
As it turned out, the loop had leaked from day one. The installer had hid the leak by hooking up an auto fill system. Only when the antifreeze had been diluted and the heat pump froze up was the problem discovered.
The main thing is to make certain that your loop is leak free at the time of install. Ask your contractor how he will verify this.
Post his method here and we can comment.
There are several hundred thousand heat pump systems installed. There are only a few that have problems. As has been stated, most problems are caused by poor design and bad install methods.
Find out how much the 55 year warranty will cost. My memory serves that it is $300 - $500. It doesn't pay if the loop is damaged by some one digging or roots or anything external. It only pays if the pipe fails. The likely hood of this is happening is close to zero.
If your loop is tested at 125 psi and doesn't fail, it probably won't ever fail.
If it was me, I wouldn't pay for the 55 year warranty. If I were you, I would use the money to hire someone to verify that you have a good design and install.
Good Luck
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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engineer
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Veteran Member
Posts:1159
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| 08/16/2009 3:01 PM |
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If the warranty only covers pipe failure absent any external cause then I too would avoid it. About the only way the pipe will fail after being backfilled and leak tested is by an external force or agent, not covered by warranty.
That trick with the autofill was very sneaky. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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engineer
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1159
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| 08/16/2009 3:06 PM |
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I like the idea of an independent expert reviewing system design and install. Done right it might include design review, a comprehensive inspection of the system at startup, and then review of the first couple power bills following commissioning and then one more check about 2/3 of the way through customer's worst season - maybe late August for a cooling dominated system or early March in a heat heavy climate. That check would take a good look at EWT and power bills as well as a basic PM check.
Maybe this is something the industry needs to implement as a check against the charlatans rising out of the woodwork, visions of fed credits in their heads. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 08/16/2009 4:03 PM |
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| Thanks for the feedback. I will skip the 55 yr warranty. I will find out the method the driller intends to use for verifying the system is leak-tight before backfilling and post it. We are tearing out our old fuel oil fired hot water radiator system this week. The rough-in is scheduled to start next week, and the driller is supposed to be here the 1st or 2nd week of Sep. I sure hope this goes smoothly. It'll be getting cold here in about 8 weeks. |
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SEEKER84
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:4
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| 08/17/2009 12:17 AM |
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| Good Luck KJ ... You sure will need it with this system. It's not the installer its the unit that is a piece of junk.. |
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geodean
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1085
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| 08/17/2009 7:53 AM |
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Seeker.....
You know not of what you speak. There are many WF units that work just fine. |
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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SEEKER84
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:4
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| 08/17/2009 9:54 PM |
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| MAybe so Geodean, but I haven't found anyone who has one. |
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a0128958
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:470
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| 08/18/2009 9:02 AM |
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Posted By SEEKER84 on 08/17/2009 9:54 PM
... but I haven't found anyone who has one. Take a lookt at http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ , illustrating two WF Envision units running fabulously, and with enough data to demonstrate they are performing to WF's factory specs, including their EER and COP claims.
I can understand your anger given the business practices of most of the major manufacturers. They want to minimize their interaction with the end customer, and instead, 'converse' only with their authorized installers.
As an example, in fact (and this is the case not just for WF), you don't actually have a warranty with the manufacturer, it's the installer who does. As another example, try calling WF and asking for some technical assistance (the response will be to call your / an authorized installer).
Unfortunately due to today's business practices by the most of the major manufacturers, the only easy way to get the attention of WF is through your installer, or another authorized WF installer willing to work on your unit(s). All other roads, such as helping everyone on public forums to conclude that WF's equipment is junk, will be highly challenging to actually get the attention of WF.
One suggestion that might be helpful is to call WF's district or territory manager, if there is one for your location. For example, in Texas here, one does exist and this person's exceptionally responsive. It might be worth your effort to find out if one exists for your area.
Best regards,
Bill
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Real time energy monitoring system at:
http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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Bergy
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:116
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| 08/18/2009 9:37 AM |
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I don't understand the logic behind thinking Water Furnace, or any other manufacturer, should deal directly with those who did not purchase from them. When you have a problem with your car do you take it to the manufacturer? No, you take it to the dealer you purchased it from. The big difference is the car dealer can't screw the new car up like an unqualified, or lazy, contractor can. Water Furnace also has no way of knowing if the loop field was properly designed and installed. Water Furnace has a very good training program but they can not force a contractor to install the unit, design the duct work and install the loops properly!!
Just as with most things now, it is probably very hard to dump a bad contractor without being sued...
Bergy
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a0128958
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:470
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| 08/18/2009 12:25 PM |
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I think one interesting difference between the two industries is who actually holds the warranty.
In the case of a car, most of the time, it's the end purchasers. And when there's a problem that needs warranty attention, the end purchaser has many options. One of course is the dealer the vehicle was bought from. But another is any other dealer that services the brand of vehicle. And a third option is many non-dealer manufacturer-authorized repair places.
For the HVAC industry, for most of the manufacturers, the end purchaser does not in fact hold the warranty. It's the installer. When there's a repair needing warranty attention, the consumer here has far fewer options. In fact, in many cases the consumer only has one - work with his/her installer.
Continuing for the HVAC industry, If the relationship between the consumer and the installer is such that the consumer wishes for another option, in many cases there isn't one. Many HVAC installers, when faced with a warranty repair request, will not engage with a consumer if they were not the installing contractor. In fact, many in the Dallas area have a view point that they're not going to clean up someone else's mess on a warranty basis, fearful of contributing to the success of a marginal installer.
And it's very difficult to get warranty service from a non-authorized installer.
As another example, try calling White Rogers some time, as an end consumer, explaining that your thermostat has failed, and that you want replacement consistent with their advertised 5 year warranty. The response will clearly be kind and professional that they (WR) won't help you, and that you must obtain replacement from your installing contractor. And absent your desire to contact him/her, or that the installer is no longer in business, you're just out of luck (again stated kindly and professionally). It's at this point you get reminded that HVAC warranties generally do not extend to the end consumer.
I think this is one of the larger differences in the two industries, in addition to what's already been pointed out that the HVAC installer has to add value-added service to make the manufacturers' product perform.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Real time energy monitoring system at:
http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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