Can anyone recommend a west coast (Ca, Or, Nv) manufacturer /supplier of metal sips or failing that at least an engineer/architect. Further does anyone have any numbers re shipping cost? So how much would it add to the costs of a SIPs structure per thousand miles of shipping? Is there sales tax on SIPs and if so can that be circumvented by purchasing out of state and shipping in? Thanks Griz

Kingspan has a manufacturing plant in Modesto, California but they see themselves more as an insulated metal panel (IMP) manufacturer than a SIP provider. They mostly do cladding on commercial/refrigeration buildings. Their panels have great insulation value (Polyiso foam) but they aren't going to be any help with engineering/design/ permitting questions or significant precutting of panels.

Posted By Grizwald on 07 Feb 2013 11:58 AM
Can anyone recommend a west coast (Ca, Or, Nv) manufacturer /supplier of metal sips or failing that at least an engineer/architect. Further does anyone have any numbers re shipping cost? So how much would it add to the costs of a SIPs structure per thousand miles of shipping? Is there sales tax on SIPs and if so can that be circumvented by purchasing out of state and shipping in? Thanks Griz

Griz,
shipping costs are about $3.50/ loaded mile,
yes there is sales tax on all building materials unless you are a reseller,
even if the seller does not charge sales tax, it is the buyers responsibility to pay the tax on their own

As an owner/builder you may be able to deduct (itemized) sales tax paid for construction materials on your taxes.

Thanks Torban and Chris,
I contacted All Weather Panels in Vacaville they have the same insulated panel product as kingspan ie not a SIPs. Chris correct me if I am wrong on this but for any product that I order from another state I am not charged state sales tax on that order. I have done this with computer equipment, shop equipment and a few other things. My point being that given that California is now the most highly taxed state in the union the cost of shipping may be at least partially compensated by not being liable for tax.

Now I am really pulling these numbers out of my butt so please correct me where I am wrong. I am thinking for shipping purposes the average thickness of a SIPS panel can be thought of as a foot (12 inches). I think the max allowable width is 8 ft and ten feat high. So a truck can carry 8x10x40 square ft = 3200 square feet of SIPs panels per load. So if this number is near correct, for my project I will need a minimum of 3 trucks so about $10.50 per mile so if the current ca sales tax is 8.5% and the cost of the SIPs are about $100K The break even point is around 800 miles. Assuming of course that building materials are like other products purchased out of state.

All that being said it may not make any difference as it seems nobody west of the mississippi makes steel SIPs.

Grizwald,
We ship with as long as 53ft. trailers as a general rule of thumb you can fit 6,000 sq. ft. of 6" panels per load. We do ship west of the Mississippi too, so far to Texas, Oklahoma, California, Edmonton, AB and Alaska
unless you have an exemption , materials are not tax free,
if someone ships to you from out of state and does not charge tax, they are not liable - you are.
everything is wonderful until you get caught

FYI - Tennessee is 9%

Chris,
now you have gone and made me depressed. I guess I can still be happy that I am not in Tennessee. I will just have to have another glass of the the locally grown Cabernet and feel sorry for myself. Also this has been an extremely cold winter. Temperatures have got down to as low as 22 F. Coming from northern Canada this does seem pretty sweet regardless of the taxes.

How much is a building permit in Tennessee or Florida for that matter. The building permit for this house will run $44,000 for a 3800 sq ft house, and I am lucky. The next county over it would be over $80K.

Griz

You may need to get another bottle or two of cabernet. I paid 2.5k on permitting and just over 6k in impact fees. Seminole County, Florida is a wonderful place to build.

Griz,
in FL.depending on size of house $1,500 - $3,000 for permit ....plus impact fees
(depending on county) $ 0.00 to $10,000.

Now you guys are just being mean. In reality there are so many obstructions to building in California it is amazing that we don't all live in caves. Actually I take that back. You couldn't get a permit to live in a cave because it would have to be engineered and then some twit at the building department would find some reason not to approve it.

I know this is drifting off topic but, a friend of ours just had an inspector tell him and I quote, "I know it is not required by code, but that's the way I want you to do it".

You think there may be a reason that the vast majority of building innovation takes place in the south-east. Grumble, grumble, grumble.

You are right about my part of the southeast.  I have had very few problems with code officials even though I was doing unconventional construction.

Grizwald,
alternative building methods are recognized in the Residential Building Code.
Typically an engineered permit plan is required, beyond that I don't see why a building official would have an issue as all the liability is back on the engineer of record

Chris,
You wouldn't think so but what happens is the plan gets approved and the building starts. All well and good. The inspector then says "I am not familiar/comfortable/knowledgeable about this kind of construction. You need to stop work until I can get up to speed." There is an example locally of a builder who went bankrupt waiting for the building department to "get up to speed". It took more than a year. That by the way was for that cutting edge practice of steel studs, you know the stuff that has been used in most commercial buildings for the last twenty years. The upshot of all that is building department approval is discretionary and if the inspector is not familiar with an alternative there is nothing you can do. The building department is not required to have someone on staff capable of inspecting an alternative building.

I have been told that things have improved in the last couple of years as a very large developer threatened to completely move out of sacramento if something was not done about this problem. The current understanding is that you have to arrange for your engineer to be onsite for every inspection and this will keep the building department off your back.

By the way on a different topic, despite posting this elsewhere in these forums, does anyone know of any material that could be used as flooring/ subflooring that is not wood. Chris I know you responded to this question a number of years ago, I am just wondering if anything has come up since.
Griz

Griz,
To prevent things like this happening, most codes have a time limitation on inspection requests, usually 2- 3 days, otherwise the inspection is considered approved.
in addition most codes provide for private "3rd party" inspections. A lot of the bigger buider/developers are going this route to avoid the BS that you speak of.

There is Mgo, but in my opinion a poor product because of its weight and brittleness,
The product I like is NyLo Board, made from recycled nylon carpet fibers, unfortunately is very expensive

Posted By Grizwald on 21 Feb 2013 09:04 PM

By the way on a different topic, despite posting this elsewhere in these forums, does anyone know of any material that could be used as flooring/ subflooring that is not wood. Chris I know you responded to this question a number of years ago, I am just wondering if anything has come up since.
Griz

Poured concrete.  Aka "suspended slab".  You can pour it over corrugated steel which stays in place, or removable forms.  Commonplace for commercial buildings.  Good way to add interior thermal mass.  It's on my wishlist for my dream house that'll never get built.  (With hydronic heating pipes buried in it, of course.)

Posted By rnortman on 21 Feb 2013 09:38 PM

Posted By Grizwald on 21 Feb 2013 09:04 PM

By the way on a different topic, despite posting this elsewhere in these forums, does anyone know of any material that could be used as flooring/ subflooring that is not wood. Chris I know you responded to this question a number of years ago, I am just wondering if anything has come up since.
Griz

Poured concrete.  Aka "suspended slab".  You can pour it over corrugated steel which stays in place, or removable forms.  Commonplace for commercial buildings.  Good way to add interior thermal mass.  It's on my wishlist for my dream house that'll never get built.  (With hydronic heating pipes buried in it, of course.)

Yes , can be done and was done on this house
, but as you say normally used commercially would need a red iron frame to support the weight
steel joists / pan

Wow, that is some house. Did the owners see the irony of a concrete and steel house being called driftwood?
I am thinking that suspended concrete would be somewhat expensive. One might be able to get away from the red iron if the spans were not too great. The first job I had in construction was on an underground parking lot and while there were a substantial number of posts there was also a significant amount of free span. I figure if it could support car traffic it could probably support my inlaws as long as they didn't all stand in one place.

Posted By Grizwald on 22 Feb 2013 11:12 AM
Wow, that is some house. Did the owners see the irony of a concrete and steel house being called driftwood?
I am thinking that suspended concrete would be somewhat expensive. One might be able to get away from the red iron if the spans were not too great. The first job I had in construction was on an underground parking lot and while there were a substantial number of posts there was also a significant amount of free span. I figure if it could support car traffic it could probably support my inlaws as long as they didn't all stand in one place.

I identified it as "Driftwood", as it is on Driftwood Drive - Palm Harbor, Florida
it was nicknamed "the Castle" during construction.
suspended concrete could not rely on the SIP wall alone and would need a steel support

Posted By Grizwald on 22 Feb 2013 11:12 AM
Wow, that is some house. Did the owners see the irony of a concrete and steel house being called driftwood?
I am thinking that suspended concrete would be somewhat expensive. One might be able to get away from the red iron if the spans were not too great. The first job I had in construction was on an underground parking lot and while there were a substantial number of posts there was also a significant amount of free span. I figure if it could support car traffic it could probably support my inlaws as long as they didn't all stand in one place.

You don't necessarily need red iron, but typical residential floor joists/trusses won't work.  There are a number of solutions, but you'll be looking at commercial products rather than residential.  It is possible to pour it into "waffle" forms that create cast concrete beams as part of the slab structure (with rebar embedded) so that the slab supports itself with the cast-in beams.  You need mongo walls or columns for something like that -- definitely the SIP wall will not support it on its own.  Any span can be created -- just look at some bridges for examples of possible spans -- but everything gets bigger and more expensive as you increase the span.