Very Funny Joe!!! We didn't raise prices because of the tax credit our prices have always been that high  Actually, last year we got a price break from our suppliers and passed that savings on to our customers in terms of lower pricing. But don't tell ICFHybrid, he will want to know by how much and how we came to that conclusion.  Just havin fun with you ICFHybrid...

That geo system in Indiana might be like the old HydroHeat systems which were and still are a nightmare

Look, over 300 consumers got rebates under the IN program. While I am sure that some of them wouldn't meet your standards, to imagine that all of them were somehow, deficient is really a stretch.

With geothermal you get what you pay for.

I don't think you can stand there and make a blanket statement like that. I've already told you that some installers went after a lot more money than the job indicated. My neighbor, who is a generous fellow, and who has more coin than sense sometimes, got totally soaked on his install.

that variable is experience...How much is that worth to you?

I think you are missing the point. I already have one of the most reputable companies in three counties installing the system, and they stand behind their work. The owner also states he will make money at the negotiated rate. We discussed it. And, he didn't say this, but I wouldn't be too surprised if he is pleased that one of his smaller competitors is not getting the job or the sale. And, I suspect that he is happy to retain me as a service customer in the future. And, since things are slow, it is entirely possible that he wants to keep guys working instead of laying them off. That's the kind of guy he is.

I've seen a lot of your posts and you seem like a knowledgeable, experienced person. You are w-a-a-a-y too focused on how this relates to you (not) which I've now had to address more times than I care to count.

I was trying to be nice but you just don't get it. Why is he slow when there is a 30% tax credit? RED FLAG!!!

Why is he slow when there is a 30% tax credit?

Because we have just had the worst recession in 70 years?

Because housing starts are at their lowest in 50 years?

Gee, you're right, I just don't get it.

Those are just excuses and and not relevant to pricing a job.

I repeat. In the last month on my owner build, I bought Andersen windows for 60 percent of the quote I received 18 months ago. The No. 2 distributor cut his price twice before giving up. A roofing company asked to reprice a bid it made three weeks earlier, saying it could take less money. For the fifth time, a supplier offered a discount for cash and no sales tax due (or entry in the company's books either, one suspects.)
Supply and demand, GeoJohn, and it's really grim out there in the parts of the housing industry not attached to the federal teat.

Todd,
No one suggests that you don't shop and get competitive bids.....but the good guys always find a way to stay busy (federal teat or not). I don't know of a region more recessed than mine (mid-MI) right now and we can't keep up with the work.
Shopping around has really paid off for you but I would suggest you run away from anyone who revises their bid too dramatically as they may not be around for warranty work.
j

I think I am beginning to understand what all the posturing and monkey antics are about....

Funny you should mention warranty work, Joe. I dare say that government tax giveaways have killed as many companies as tax hikes -- first by drawing in fad suckers who are not qualified to be in business and then by stressing all of the players when the stimulus ends. After Reagan axed Jimmy Carter's solar tax credits, if the mortality rate in the solar collector industry wasn't 100 percent, it must have been close.
Set some money aside while business is booming.
BTW, if you are turning away customers, why would you care what they think of your prices, except to weigh the possibility that you aren't charging enough?

Posted By toddm on 12 Jan 2011 02:42 PM
BTW, if you are turning away customers, why would you care what they think of your prices, except to weigh the possibility that you aren't charging enough?

The last day I contributed was my first sick day in 2 years so I have been trying to catch up my work since.....

Todd you seem sensible, maybe you can answer your own question.
As far as I know my prices weren't the issue here so: if you have a group of pros that (by and large) have been contributing to these forums since before the current 30% tax credits (and are all busy) do you think that
 
A) we want to blindly defend somebody else's pricing as part of a secret nationwide brotherhood of unethical overpriced contractors 

or

B) We are good at what we do, we spend spare time trying to advance a product we believe in and help consumers....and we are going to object to both snide comments about the product and selective math that ignores operating expenses and real world market forces, among other things, as well as suggestions that we must be crooked if we object

Sure there are crooked contractors out there, that's why we have a shoppers list and spend so much time to help ensure a good experience for people who ask for our help. You guys really wanna keep busting our chops over that? You really wanna keep acting like "A" is the likely scenario?

Honestly

OMG Todd has us nailed!

Nobody give him our secret cyber handshake or all will truly be lost!

Nice one Curt!
I really wasn't poking fun.

Todd, your arguments seem reasonably based and nearly void of the "conspiracy" inuendo that others suggest. Most of these folks will pick apart one small point of a larger topic and act as though it's a smoking gun. Some will complain that they were attacked or suggest it's not about us and then attack (I think I am beginning to understand what all the posturing and monkey antics are about....). 
So my question was genuine (as is the insult I feel when others imply myself and all the other pros here are gouging customers).

I'll add a couple questions for you:
Have I or the other guys ever suggested that folks not get multiple bids?
Haven't we always said prices vary regionally so it's dificult for us to know what is fair outside of our AO's?
Did I just get called a monkey?
j

Have I or the other guys ever suggested that folks not get multiple bids?

Good. I'm glad you support that. What I presented was an alternative pricing scenario that meets that description. Some customers need the full meal deal, others need less support. If you are confident in the "value-added" service you offer, should you show so much anxiety about the customers' right to choose?

Haven't we always said prices vary regionally so it's dificult for us to know what is fair outside of our AO's?

Then why such umbrage over a $50.00/hr wholesale rate OUT of your AO?

As long as you keep wanting to spin this, I would like to hear why all you service professionals allowed this clearly misrepresentational example to exist for months without calling it into question. I think one of you even requested that it be "stickied". It justified charging hundreds if not thousands of dollars extra for bogus things like "sales tax paid", "30% payroll taxes" and questionable labor costs, in addition to a truly convoluted accounting of how much overhead and profit there "should" be.

And before someone gets personally offended again, I will note that I am using the pronoun "you" in the plural sense. I have already said more times than I care to go back and count that I don't know what "your" personal business practices are and I don't really care. Some of "you" have made it a great point to profess honesty among other things, and I am able to take that at face value.

I think it's time to calm it down a little on both sides....After reading these 5 pages of posts, I think I see a pattern on both sides where someone suggesting an alternative (first with any other hvac source besides Geothermal and then in regards to pricing) gets blowback feedback, that is where the other side just can not seem to comprehend that sometimes those other choices are better, and, with regard to pricing, that not everyone has a contractor friend that we can count on.

Of course, it seems both sides have gotten out of sorts, taking offense at reasonable and unreasonable questions as well as offering snide comments and remarks. Having read through all of this, I haven't really seen anything useful since the 2nd page.

for the record, I would like to say that I am designing a home, that only God knows if I will ever get the chance to build it, but I have thought about Geo, and like the idea. I have discussed with my coworkers (who all have geothermal) about their geo systems and how they are. I've brought up that in tighter houses, the cost of the geo system will never pay itself back....which I read on another place on this forum. The reason for this, is because with tighter houses (including ICF and passive houses), the number of btu's or kwh or therms or whatever heating unit you want to use, is so low, that the cost difference between operating a gas system or an electric system is so small, and the cost difference between installing a geothermal system vs a conventional furnace is so big that payback may not (depends on house specifics) happen until well after the warranty period has ended. I view the warranty period as the payoff period or return on investment period...If the system can't pay for the additional costs (relative to the cost of the other options) within the warranty period, then to me, it is not worth the expense because there is a distinct possibility that the product will fail before it is paid off. But geothermal is a special case, as the field work is generally warranted for 50 yrs, and if the geothermal unit fail and need to be replaced, the field work would not need to be replaced.

All that said, back to the coworkers...they said that there are more positives that outweigh the costs...like the comfort level. They recommend everyone getting a geothermal heat pump, justifying the cost because it does offer price stability (electricity is relatively stable compared to fuel oil or propane, in rural areas where natural gas may not be an option).

And back to the main topic...sorry for getting off topic....to the builders: a lot of consumers get screwed...some of that is on them, for not doing research, some of that is because (as everyone has admitted) not every contractor is a good contractor or even an honest one. Consumers who don't understand the details of what they are asking you to install have been taken, and are bitter. Part of this is because the salesmen make it sound so simple, that the consumer thinks they know more about it than they do. Add to that the fact that most consumers are usually worried about cost more so than anything else, and they wonder why it costs so much to get the product installed. The insistence (early on) that geothermal is the best and only smart way to go may in fact be correct, but when questioned about it, or told otherwise, you probably shouldn't be responding like the person who suggested otherwise is a complete moron, even if they are. Regardless of how good you are at your job, you come off sounding like a jerk.

To the consumers: a lot of builders have issues with people who think they know it all, yet know nothing about what it takes to do the job they are requested to do. And because most consumers do not always know what they want, or are not experts in the trades, it is often difficult to communicate. That is, they do not always understand what you are telling them, because it may not make much sense to someone who knows their stuff. What they do know is their business (at least the good ones do), so take the time to find a good one, you will pay more, but as they have said, you get what you pay for. As a side, I had 3 different contractors come to my house to price new gas furnaces to replace the old one (didn't have the money to go geo, nor had the will to cut through the slab floor) and no one did a manual J calculation. When asked, they said I didn't need it, because the rule of thumb was such a size for the square footage and with their experience, they could size it in their sleep. These are the people you need to stay away from. Asking questions is a good thing...getting bent out of shape over the answers is not. If you ask someone for numbers, trust that their numbers are right for their business. But don't trust them as the only source. Ask around. If other contractors are willing to do the job for cheaper, ask why the one is more expensive. And ask why this one isn't. But don't argue numbers with them. If you don't believe their numbers, then don't waste your time and blood pressure by calling them out on it. Simply refuse to do business with them. And if any of your friends want to know who to do business with, express your concerns about that particular contractor. And don't assume because you read it on here that it is written in stone. There are so many differences area to area that make a job cost more or less. Either way, don't be surprised if you get made fun of when you act like a know it all but found out you don't when you are on a contractor web site.



And now a question of my own...Someone mentioned having to need a second meter just for the geothermal unit? This doesn't sound right to me. Did the homeowner request it so they know exactly how much power is just for the geo unit? Did the customer have a big enough account where adding the second meter kept them from having to worry about demand charges and the minimum monthly charges that would incur? I am an electrical engineer for a rural electric association, and this doesn't sound right...as mentioned before a lot of my coworkers have the geothermal units and none of them have a second meter.

The second meter is only to measure the usage of the heat pump.

..... edit for double post

Posted By Cgallaway on 18 Jan 2011 10:10 PM
I haven't really seen anything useful since the 2nd page.

I agree and wish more readers would ask the administrator to split this thread into two threads, locking the first sticky thread after the first page or two, and leave the remaining posts for another non-sticky thread.  The original point of this sticky, to give people a basic understanding of the costs involved with geothermal,  has been polluted.

The original point of this sticky, to give people a basic understanding of the costs involved with geothermal, has been polluted.

In that case, maybe one of you wants to replace the sticky with some information that is a bit more "clear"?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Jan 2011 11:18 AM

The original point of this sticky, to give people a basic understanding of the costs involved with geothermal, has been polluted.

In that case, maybe one of you wants to replace the sticky with some information that is a bit more "clear"?

No one else complained that this sticky is not "clear".  Sorry this sticky upsets you so.  This thread has had over 7,100 views and most people understand its general purpose and content.

When you give advise to others on this forum, perhaps you can henceforth be "clear" as to your geothermal ownership, training and experience as others, including myself, have done.

I forgot for a moment that I don't respond to trolls.

When you give advise to others on this forum, perhaps you can henceforth be "clear" as to your geothermal ownership, training and experience as others, including myself, have done.

How much more clear? I think I was very clear in specifying exactly what I was saying and what the source was here. If you want to explain to us how bumping the price of a geo system by claiming an installer has to pay sales tax on it, or where payroll taxes are "30%", then have at.

I'd welcome a knowledgeable and comprehensive treatment of the subject from any of you experienced installers. If you have difficulty with estimating your labor costs, then it might be sufficient to just specify how many hours of labor generally go into what and let people apply what they think is reasonable for their own area.