Some people might say a Prius actually has some interesting engineering.

Maybe it's more like the comparison between building a jalopy with '68 Falcon parts and pulling a new Chrysler K-car out of storage and putting a digital stereo in it?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 13 Mar 2011 11:36 PM
Some people might say a Prius actually has some interesting engineering.

Maybe it's more like the comparison between building a jalopy with '68 Falcon parts and pulling a new Chrysler K-car out of storage and putting a digital stereo in it?

Ummmm, lets try it your way.
Are there intelligent people here that suppose a new heat pump installed by a for profit company (or a Prius) compares to a 25 year old economy car with a new radio?
How could I have thought there was no value in this discussion?
j

How could I have thought there was no value in this discussion?
j

I think it's because you're uptight about this issue.

well, my 'go-kart' with COP of 5.6 outperforms the high priced retail stuff.

If a retail GSHP (which have 100 YO technology only actually, the control board IS like putting a new stereo in an '84 K-car, all flash, no dash) were up to Prius level technology, it would have triaxially linear HE (vs wimpy coil), dual 3 phase compressors with variable speed H-bridge drives, etc. What is on the market? Just Model A technology with a flashy new stero.

Anybody that can read a mollier diagram can build a go-cart out of scraps that outperforms the fancy GSHP models offered retail today.

my 2 cents to tweak the salesmen, eh

There's always something to learn from passionate DIY'ers. We should never underestimate the ability of others.
I think what may be called into question here by some of the pros is whether it is fair to compare pricing of a DIY job vs. a pro job. I agree that that doesn't really help buyers determine what a "fair" installed price is for a system and it's certainly reasonable for the pros to bring up costs of insurance, equipment, employees, etc. since those all have to be factored into running a business.
On the other hand, I think homeowners are perfectly justified in asking why installed system costs have gone from $20k to $40k at the same time the government started offering large incentives.

Posted By tinoue on 14 Mar 2011 07:43 AM

On the other hand, I think homeowners are perfectly justified in asking why installed system costs have gone from $20k to $40k at the same time the government started offering large incentives.

On the third hand,  this has not happened in my area and I doubt that it is the case in all but a few isolated cases.

That's reassuring. I've had a number of clients in my area complaining about this. The area is pretty affluent and contractors of all types tend to charge as much as the market allows.

Posted By geodean on 14 Mar 2011 08:29 AM

Posted By tinoue on 14 Mar 2011 07:43 AM

On the other hand, I think homeowners are perfectly justified in asking why installed system costs have gone from $20k to $40k at the same time the government started offering large incentives.

On the third hand,  this has not happened in my area and I doubt that it is the case in all but a few isolated cases.

Can anyone produce a 4 year old estimate for a project that is 1/2 the price of a current one?

Let's have some proof that prices have gone up significantly since the tax credit.

The only thing driving the cost of my heat pumps up is EnergyStar and fed refrigerant law. Longer warranties (demanded by many here and EStar) 2 stage compressors, ECM blowers and R-410 systems curiously don't cost the same as single stage R-22 systems with PSC motors. I sold  an R-22 system as recently as 2 years ago. It is no longer available or tax credit worthy.
Net price increase ~ $1,000 or ~5%. Net profit increase ~0.
If someone can site a place where demand is so much higher than supply and prices have doubled lemme know where it is and I'll get my tools loaded up.

Junkhound, I'm sure you have a very nice go-cart, didn't mean to offend.  

Can anyone produce a 4 year old estimate for a project that is 1/2 the price of a current one?
Let's have some proof that prices have gone up significantly since the tax credit.

Have you forgotten about the Indiana Office of Energy and Defense Development Rebate Program study from June, 2008 in which the average installed system cost was $14,278?

Hey Joe, you're welcome to move out to Eastern PA. We need more qualified installers out here!

Your points are exactly the ones consumers need to be aware of. I'm about to write an article on geo for my blog, and I'm sure that costs will come up. I'd like to put together a list of these types of things that have driven costs up so that I can help educate consumers and set realistic expectations.

Some of the immediate things that come to mind, including yours:
- Single stage vs. two stage compressors
- PSC vs. ECM air handlers
- Duct installation cost increases to to more stringent building codes
- Well drilling costs
- Well lining costs due to increased metal prices
- Basic inflation (i.e. 5 years at 3% is 15% increase simply due to inflation. 3% is a rough estimate for average inflation during this period) Of course, I have to be careful about "double dipping". We can't just add inflation AND these other costs.
- Employee benefits costs (health insurance, unemployment ins., etc.)
- Other regulatory/inspection requirements?

What else?

p.s. wtf do I have to format my posts with html code half the time? Sometimes it's wysiwyg and half the time it forces me to insert html tags to do formatting! I'd greatly appreciated it you installers could chime in and give realistic ranges of how these items have increased costs in, say, the last five years.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 14 Mar 2011 11:00 AM

Can anyone produce a 4 year old estimate for a project that is 1/2 the price of a current one?
Let's have some proof that prices have gone up significantly since the tax credit.

Have you forgotten about the Indiana Office of Energy and Defense Development Rebate Program study from June, 2008 in which the average installed system cost was $14,278?

Huh??? Are you saying that the same office now suggests the average installed cost is ~$28,500? Or even significantly more? Since tax credits were available in '08 price jumps since then can't be blamed on them.
Just trying to understand your point in the context of the question that you quoted.

j

Tinoue,
By and large HVAC equipment jumps 3-5%/year if not impacted by government (jump to R-410), government (tax credit qualifying criteria), government (certain safety controls), government (minimum efficiencies), local government (permit price hikes), local government (business tax hikes), local government (added requirements on open permits) and local government (business fee hikes) oh and the price of gas.....

The 30% tax credit (with no cap) wasn't added to IRS code until the last quarter of 2008. That's why I noted the study was from June of 2008. The systems covered in the study were installed before the tax credits were in effect.

I don't really have an interest in finding a single self-contained document which fully illustrates the rise in cost coincident with tax credits, just so you can agree. I think the evidence, for me and for others is more than sufficient. $28,500 would represent the low end of a number of quotes that posters have come here asking about recently.

I would note, again, the clumsy attempt to "jack up" a price point justification that led off this thread. If I recall, the author claimed false expenses, taxes and questionable labor costs among other things to get up to $26,000. I have personally found similar attempts at justification among a number of installers.

I do think it is a credit to your business leadership and fair competition in your area that you haven't come across it yourself.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 14 Mar 2011 12:29 PM
The 30% tax credit (with no cap) wasn't added to IRS code until the last
quarter of 2008. That's why I noted the study was from June of 2008.

That $14k "average price" in June 2008 must have been for some kinda time-warp
found only in Indiana (prolly related to the state's famous time-zone time-warps).
Either that, or prices more than doubled between June and August 2008, when I
signed the contract for my 3-ton WF Envision. The well alone was almost $9k.

Anyone here have first-hand experience with a $14k retrofit contracted in 2008?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 14 Mar 2011 12:29 PM
1)The 30% tax credit (with no cap) wasn't added to IRS code until the last quarter of 2008. That's why I noted the study was from June of 2008. The systems covered in the study were installed before the tax credits were in effect.

2)I don't really have an interest in finding a single self-contained document which fully illustrates the rise in cost coincident with tax credits, just so you can agree. I think the evidence, for me and for others is more than sufficient. $28,500 would represent the low end of a number of quotes that posters have come here asking about recently.

3)I would note, again, the clumsy attempt to "jack up" a price point justification that led off this thread. If I recall, the author claimed false expenses, taxes and questionable labor costs among other things to get up to $26,000. I have personally found similar attempts at justification among a number of installers.

4)I do think it is a credit to your business leadership and fair competition in your area that you haven't come across it yourself.

1) right. prior to that no one in the "geo conspiracy" jacked up the price because the cap was 2k.? really?
first time you cited this Indiana example you conceded it was flawed and btw, did you check to see if they updated? if not then again 0 value.
2) you don't really have an "intrest" in finding anything that doesn't support your point of view (or can't find anything that does)......what evidence? 28,500 does not represent the number I cited in the comments you are responding to (it is 40% high).
3)again, you offer "clumsy" support for your contrary opinion. one thing people learn in politics is if your "facts" don't support your argument- change the argument. are you a congressman?
4)thanks for noticing

honestly ICF, I'm not sure you and I couldn't have a great conversation somewhere (if you imbibe, I'll buy the beer). You did suggest I'm "uptight" however and I'm "uptight" about flawed examples, junk science and criticism based on unfounded  bias.

You think the root of this thread is flawed, fine. Cast your vote with mine to ditch it. Don't call it an indictment against geo.
I continue to suggest it does not represent all regions. Wadaya want from me?
j

Posted By Looby on 14 Mar 2011 12:55 PM

Posted By ICFHybrid on 14 Mar 2011 12:29 PM
The 30% tax credit (with no cap) wasn't added to IRS code until the last
quarter of 2008. That's why I noted the study was from June of 2008.

That $14k "average price" in June 2008 must have been for some kinda time-warp
found only in Indiana (prolly related to the state's famous time-zone time-warps).
Either that, or prices more than doubled between June and August 2008, when I
signed the contract for my 3-ton WF Envision. The well alone was almost $9k.

Anyone here have first-hand experience with a $14k retrofit contracted in 2008?

I am fascinated by Indiana.
Living in a border state, I noted recently, my new neighbors- from -Kokomo (harken a Beach Boys tune anyone?) commented on how everything was cheaper. Gas, Insurance, Real estate, taxes........can't think of any reason geo would be cheaper there.........
and btw still waiting for IN to suggest geo costs more since the tax credits.
j

1) right. prior to that no one in the "geo conspiracy" jacked up the price because the cap was 2k.? really?

Maybe they did. I think it would be much harder to detect a $2K increase as opposed to a 30% increase.

first time you cited this Indiana example you conceded it was flawed and btw, did you check to see if they updated? if not then again 0 value.

No, I don't remember indicating that it was flawed. I think you very much wanted to believe that. It is what it is. Sounds like you didn't read it, lending even more credence to the theory that you are pretty uptight about it.

2) you don't really have an "intrest" in finding anything that doesn't support your point of view (or can't find anything that does)......what evidence?

That's right. That's how things work. I could find a dozen installers charging a fair price and that wouldn't prove that there isn't price gouging facilitated by the federal rebate. Unfortunately, in my recent search, I found just the opposite.

28,500 does not represent the number I cited in the comments you are responding to (it is 40% high).

I think you are the only one who has quoted $28,500. It didn't originate with me.

3)again, you offer "clumsy" support for your contrary opinion.

No, I think it is pretty reasonable and I'm not the only one who has noticed, judging by some other posts.

You think the root of this thread is flawed, fine.

Well, it's more balanced now. Readers get a chance to see the OP, which, oddly enough, several members continue to refer to in positive terms, and they get to see the following discussion which provides counterbalance. What could be better than that?

ICF,
Why not revisit your post from a few weeks back...."You probably already know that in 2008, The Indiana Office of Energy and Defense Development analyzed (for a rebate program) the average, fully installed cost of 5 ton Geothermal systems at $16,865."
Hmmmmm....perhaps it wasn't flawed by your definition. perhaps the number was higher (based on your post in this very thread)......you throw around so many arbitray numbers, who can keep them straight (obviously not you).
But again, do you have something from Indiana now that suggests install prices are

significntly higher since the tax credits?

that was the question (try to keep up)
j

average 5 ton price = $16,865.
Av price for all systems = $14,278.

Is that what you are concerned about?


The Indiana data is what we have to work with. If you have some information which sheds some light on the 2007/2008 Indiana data, then lets see it.

Have you a debate coach available?
Since the challange is "show a significant price increase since the tax credits", you would do so by offering before and after numbers i.e.:
Indiana's average heat pump price was X in 2007 (pre-30% tax credit) and Y in 2009 (post uncapped 30% tax credit).
If you have information that sheds light on your assertion, let's see it.