Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Jan 2011 01:01 PM

When you give advise to others on this forum, perhaps you can henceforth be "clear" as to your geothermal ownership, training and experience as others, including myself, have done.

How much more clear? I think I was very clear in specifying exactly what I was saying and what the source was here. If you want to explain to us how bumping the price of a geo system by claiming an installer has to pay sales tax on it, or where payroll taxes are "30%", then have at.

I'd welcome a knowledgeable and comprehensive treatment of the subject from any of you experienced installers. If you have difficulty with estimating your labor costs, then it might be sufficient to just specify how many hours of labor generally go into what and let people apply what they think is reasonable for their own area.

Perhaps you would have better luck getting a detail breakdown of all costs for all of your other proposed purchases including cars, insurance, food at the grocery store, and troll sundries.  I'm sure Ford would be happy to share this information with you through a copy of their annual report.  Now what?  Try taking it to the dealership and tell the sales manager that you are going to apply a labor rate that you "think is reasonable for" your area and demand that you be charged less.  Let us know how that works out for you. 

People are given a quote, (if they are prudent, they get several) and they determine whether it is worth it for them to go geothermal given the alternatives.  Everything else is not relevant including the labor rate that goes into the quote.  It doesn't matter what people "think is reasonable for their own area."  It only matters how much someone is willing to sell it to them for, how much they are willing to spend, and whether it is worth it to them to buy or not.  Get it?  Probably not.

ICFHybrid, since you refuse to be "clear" regarding your experience, we can only assume that you have No geothermal system, No geothermal training, and No geothermal installation experience.  Others should take note, and take your opinions and advise with skepticism.

Others should take note, and take your opinions and advise with skepticism.

Pretty much sounds like a good approach to the Internet in general.

Sounds fine, though. You can continue to represent those who sell geothermal if that's what you want to do, and I'll represent a little portion of homeowners and those skeptics thinking about buying.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Jan 2011 08:05 PM
You can continue to represent those who sell geothermal if that's what you want to do, and I'll represent a little portion of homeowners and those skeptics thinking about buying.

You got me.  Joe sends me 5 cents every time I defend the evil Geothermal Pro Coalition (GPC) against the self appointed Geothermal Labor Rate Homeowner Advocate (GLRHA) (you).    You obviously haven't been doing much reading here if you don't think I take up with homeowners as well.

As a homeowner with common sense and a geothermal system, I'd sleep better knowing you weren't representing me. 

Posted By Cgallaway on 18 Jan 2011 10:10 PM 

I haven't really seen anything useful since the 2nd page.

I've brought up that in tighter houses, the cost of the geo system will never pay itself back. 

to the builders: a lot of consumers get screwed.



And now a question of my own...Someone mentioned having to need a second meter just for the geothermal unit? This doesn't sound right to me.

CG,
to your first point, I agree. My preference would be to close all stickies and let folks start new threads if they wish to criticize it. In another sticky we are now 10 pages deep; most of the last 5 seem obsessed with "brand importance".

Your second statement would have a lot of mitigating factors, most importantly cost of fuel involved. While what you say is often true, "never" is going to be difficult to support.

Absolutely true that people get screwed. The best defense is education. Those who fail to educate themselves on a 5 figure purchase must have a lot more money than I. I suggest that my clients come here as they are able to get opinions from folks that aren't trying to sell them something.

Regarding the electric meter- some folks purchase them to monitor their equipment and some utility companies require a seperate meter for a discount "space heating" rate.

j

"You got me. Joe sends me 5 cents every time I defend the evil Geothermal Pro Coalition (GPC) against the self appointed Geothermal Labor Rate Homeowner Advocate (GLRHA) (you)."


Look. I haven't accused you of anything and have no intention or desire to do so. Do you know what the Shakespeare quote "Methinks the lady doth protest too much" means?

To date, this is what I've said;

1) There are several obviously misleading elements to the cost evaluation at the top of the thread. Fact.

2) Anyone can buy a GT package, delivered to your home for $7,500. Fact

3) I got a quote to duct it for $2,500. Fact.

4) I got a wholesale install price of $5,000 - 100 hrs labor - from a reputable, durable, honest, etc., etc., contractor. Fact.

Yet, you are trying to go off on all kinds of tangents about you and other things I don't care about.

I am not trying to break your rice bowl and I am sorry you feel threatened enough to call me names and question my character. You just need to relax.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 20 Jan 2011 01:33 PM
I haven't accused you of anything and have no intention or desire to do so.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Jan 2011 08:05 PM
You can continue to represent those who sell geothermal...

Sounds like an accusation to me.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 20 Jan 2011 01:33 PM
To date, this is what I've said;

You forgot:

5)

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Jan 2011 01:01 PM
...let people apply what they think is reasonable for their own area.

6)

Posted By ICFHybrid on 16 Jan 2011 02:52 PM
...I would like to hear why all you service professionals allowed this clearly misrepresentational example to exist for months without calling it into question. I think one of you even requested that it be "stickied". It justified charging hundreds if not thousands of dollars extra for bogus things like "sales tax paid", "30% payroll taxes" and questionable labor costs, in addition to a truly convoluted accounting of how much overhead and profit there "should" be.

7)

Posted By ICFHybrid on 11 Jan 2011 12:05 PM
I don't know how many overpriced ($44,000 in this case) installs a guy has to do to stay in business, but I bet it isn't that many.

and, many more things.  Do you even bother to try remembering your own posts?  Apparently not.  I believe the people here are smarter than you give them credit for.

Sounds like an accusation to me.

That's an accusation? Aren't you just a little too sensitive over these things, especially considering that none of them have been directed at you?

Do you even bother to try remembering your own posts?

When I listed the things I've "said", I will agree that there has been more than just the four things, but I also didn't dream that someone could take such offense over any of them, particularly if it wasn't applied to them. You are being just a bit too literal and it continues to be very odd that these things threaten you so much.

Not threatened, offense taken, etc.  Just adding my opinion to that of others regarding your questionable comments.

Thanks to those that answered my question regarding the second meter specifically for the geothermal unit...I am relatively new in this position at the co-op but couldn't think of any other reasons than I mentioned in my rather long post. Good to see that I hit the nail on the head regarding the desire to only measure the gshp by itself.

Thanks again!

Am new here and went to find info on recriprocity between IRC and foreign specs and saw this thread.

But just for kicks, going totally green, here is my costs for DIY GSHP (excluding my labor and equipment time as own my backhoe/dozer/etc). I get 58600 BTU from the 4T compressor and a measured COP of 5.6.

Cost of materials on a typical 4 ton system includes:
4 ton heat pump: $3,690
Bought a new surplus 4T copeland scroll from Grainger closeout, main expense, $300; condensor from scrap 7-1/2T coleman AC, free; built evap form coaxial pipe, tube in tube, <$100 in surplus pipe. Controls custom built using scraped and rebuilt ACs

4 ton vertical ground loop: $2,255
Used surplus pvc vs poly or pex, <$200, but maybe 16 hrs labor

125' of line set, approx. $1,100-$1,300
< 10 ft, configured system ends to amtch up to house

R-22 refrigerant, $200
R290, $15

Nitrogen, $45
used some out of existing tank, < $5?? How does somebody use $45 worth of N@???

heat pump thermostat, $200
found a visionpro at goodwill with cracked case but worked good, $3

duct, including the grilles, registers, duct seal, (always varies greatly), let's say it's a new home, 2000 s.f. per level, basement and main (NOT A RETROFIT COST): $2,400
Already had all ducts in place

condensate drain: $50-$100, depending if a pump is needed
installed as HP only, no condensate drain needed

acetylene and brazing rod: $50
about right, considering the exhorbitant cost of acetylene and silver these days.

freight: $450
none

total under $500... and a weeks work tax free, say at $100/hr, = $4500
If you count the labor as learning experience or just plain exercise that you would have had to pay to do at a gym, it was all free!!!!!

PS:
depreciation costs of dozer, backhoe, drilling rig, full machine shop, 100K worth of other tools, etc. not included........total diy means you DO get to buy lots of tools

I Vote for mods to dump this thread.......
Now we are getting used PE compared to a copper DX loop system....
Somebody please pull the thumbtack on this thing!
j

Yep - the original intent was good, but now lost, as I have stated before. My preference would still be to lock it after the 1st or 2nd page and dump the rest. If this won't be done, I also vote for the dump.

Hmm, interesting site, 2 suggestions to dump a whole thread after my 2nd post ever

NO DIYs allowed here?, did not see that in any site rules. Guess I better go back and re-read site rules.

junkhound,
the copper loop system I mentioned is required to be purchased from the manufacturer of the Direct Exchange system you are comparing your DIY project to. With something in the neighborhood of 1,000 feet of copper pipe (which incidently takes a lot of nitrogen for the required 300PSI tests and 30 pounds of refrigerant to fill) the only thing it has in common with the system you mentioned is a compressor.

The reason I vote for dropping this post is- cost of a heat pump on the East coast vs Midwest Vs Saudi Arabia varies wildly due to many things that are not considered by arbitrary blogs.
Further comparisons between DX and water source and DIY systems as well as arbitrarily assigned (or discarded) values or costs can't hope to accomplish anything.

Congratulations on the success of your project. I'm not sure a homemade heat pump compares fairly to the installation by a for profit company of what is in one of the most expensive out of the box geo systems (DX). Because some think it does (or don't know the difference) I again feel this thread offers no value, in fact I think it muddies the water.

If you still feel that my opinion is inspired soley by your "2nd post ever" then I have no other explanation to clear it up for you.

Many here have spent time helping DIY installers or users that want a better understanding of their system so your insinuation that DIYs are not welcome here is no more fair than comparing plastic pipe to copper.
j

Hmm, interesting site, 2 suggestions to dump a whole thread after my 2nd post ever

NO DIYs allowed here?, did not see that in any site rules. Guess I better go back and re-read site rules.

This site is for the exchange of green building ideas. I think your post is exceptionally well-qualified. Thanks for putting it up.

Posted By geome on 20 May 2010 08:21 AM
Thanks Dewayne. We should really give the credit to thehtrguy. He did the hard part by writing up an explanation that is easy to understand. Should have been made a sticky when he originally posted this, but it's not too late. Just as relevant today as it was back then. 

It's absolutely a good idea! Nice one guys!!


__________
SIPs

Geo professionals have an agenda and it's in their interest to squelch any conversation that could harm finances or reputation. Some of them act accordingly. Hopefully Greenbuildingtalk won't succumb to this (like other sites have).

Oh, our code has been cracked again! Time for another synchronized recalibration of all our secret decoder rings.

Mybad.
I didn't realize how many intelligent folks would find cost comparison of a home made go cart (built of used parts) to a new Prius such a valuable tool for analyzing geo cost......
By all means lets continue to mine the wealth within such worthy contributions.
j