If you have information that sheds light on your assertion, let's see it.

You're forgetting that what led us here in the first place were the consistent reports of abnormally high quotes for ground source heat pump systems, including this thread in which a ham-handed poster used obviously misleading accounting methods and false assertions to support the notion of why "geo costs so much". And, instead of addressing the misleading tactics, nearly everyone adopted it and pointed to it as a shining example to support high profits.

ICF,
Why don't you just provide the data and let it speak for itself. We would all be interested in seeing when the quotes jumped up to be so high?
Oh, but why would you do that and ruin the fun of spewing rhetoric, annoying people that want to help others, and ignoring the fact that everyone that sells a service or product has marketing tactics that show savings of one type or another.

Really?  What is your goal here? To show all the contractors that you alone, have uncovered a conspiracy and no one should buy geothermal products anymore until the price gouging stops?

The best way to do that is to provide data and let intelligent people come to their own conclusions.

Where's the data????

Where's the data????

What data? I haven't done any data collection. Not formally, anyway.

gonegeo, I totally agree with you.  As Engineer says - without data, you only have an opinion.

I've never claimed it was any more than an opinion. I'm just a homeowner who wondered why he was getting quotes of $30K, $40K and $60K and up to install a box worth less than $7K. And, I'm not the only one that has been wondering that.

Although, I do have to point out that the Indiana report shows that systems can be and are, installed for much lower prices than we see people willing to admit here.

As they say in marketing, "perception is everything." The fact that there's a widespread perception that prices have gone up considerably is what matters. The burden of proof is on you pros to prove that prices have NOT gone up substantially in the last few years. Since you're all so confident that no price jiggering has gone on, publish your data.
Look at your installed price to consumer for your most common configuration over the last several years. Sure, there's going to be some variation because of options and specific conditions, but statistically, these will smooth out. This would be tremendously useful data.
Not only would this be very useful data to prove your points, it would also provide some baseline data for people all over. I know, this terrifies you guys and you'll jump up and down and say you can't do it. Well, sure you can. If Joe can do 800' of wells and a two stage 4-ton ECM system install excluding ducts for $30k in Joesville, then it sure is going to smell funny when person X gets a $50k quote for a near identical configuration in PA. At the same time, it will also smell funny if contractor Fred offers to do it for $15k. transparency in pricing works in both directions.

ICF

Bids will vary a lot depending on  brand of gshp, type of exchange loop, soil/ledge depth and wet/dry conditions, overhead of company, etc...
You can bet that with all the installer competition coming on line, that if there is gouging among installers, it will dissipate soon.
This is not a straightforward system like fossil fuel systems. There are a lot more variables and tolerances to maintain during design and installation to get the efficiencies that these afford. 

If every installer, in a particular area,  has to buy from the same distribution channel and the distribution chain, including the manufacturer,  is gouging, well that is another story. Most installers won't know or will just say that is the way it is.  Remember, when you are buying some of these units, you are paying for marketing, slightly different electronics, better warranty (yes, these are not free),  training, and possibly high distributor margins.  Many will summize that this is the best way to go for their particular needs and it affords some a greater level of comfort that they like to have.

I think there is enough installer competition that maybe that is not where the perceived pricing issue lies. That said, there could be pockets of trades that are taking advantage in one geo related area or another to jack up pricing.

Please let us know when you find the cause of the price gouging.  It could be different reasons where you are located.  You would have to analyze the whole supply chain to find the nuggets of information.  I know this is not easy to do.

Posted By tinoue on 15 Mar 2011 12:57 PM
The burden of proof is on you pros to prove that prices have NOT gone up substantially in the last few years. Since you're all so confident that no price jiggering has gone on, publish your data.

Well forgive me if I don't cite the price of every geo sale I've ever made, but I can say this (again).
Most of the systems I sell are 3-4 ton. The majority are in the high teens some in low 20's. Few are under 10k (mostly replacements and the occasional DIY assisst). Fewer are over 30K mostly large construction projects. Less over 40, none (residential) have been 50K. Most homes <5000 SF.
Price increase over the last 5 years ~ $1,000 (5%ish). Improvement in part and labor warranties 100 to 500%. Improvement in efficiency no less than 10%. Federal law requiring R410 priceless? (that's another political debate).

I can't speak to the cost of doing business elsewhere. I can tell you the vast majority of our installs are horizontal and I don't see many areas where geo is much cheaper.

But, this is not new news. The pretense is because someone East of here charges more then they must be gouging due to tax credits.

The reason I suggest the ball is in the neigh sayers court is the assertion is made without supporting info. Disparity in price regionally does not support any hypothesis.
Further offering the following "I've never claimed it was any more than an opinion. I'm just a homeowner who wondered why he was getting quotes of $30K, $40K and $60K and up..." without bids for the same project 4 years ago continues to suggest a bias without support. Of course the same contributor confesses "What data? I haven't done any data collection."

Anyone who learned debate in high school or logic 101 in college would bridle at the statement "X is wrong but I have no supporting data" followed by "you must prove them wrong". No, the way it works is one supports their position with apples to apples examples (not New England today vs Indiana 3 years ago, or "for profit company vs DIY from spare parts).

All else is conjecture. The argument is junk. 
J

I can't speak to the cost of doing business elsewhere.

If you don't know what is happening elsewhere, then what is the basis for your steadfast claims that gouging isn't occurring? Pricing exploitation caused by external market forces (such as tax credits) are a well-documented economic occurrence. I guarantee you that the manufacturers are being monitored to prevent price gouging, but that would not necessarily apply to small or independent installers. So, what makes you think that this market would behave any differently? Fact is, it's a textbook example whether you care to recognize it or not.

"If you don't know what is happening elsewhere, then what is the basis for your steadfast claims that gouging isn't occurring?"
I continue to assert that you have shown no evidence of gouging.
I continue to assert that you have not supported your "opinions".
I continue to assert that your arguments are flawed within themselves (i.e. citing a low average purchase price in a tax credit year as proof that tax credits raised geo prices).

You continue to prove me right.

Why do you continue to use phrases such as "well-documented" and "textbook example"? Then you admit you've done little research ("What data? I haven't done any data collection. Not formally, anyway").
How would you know what is true?

j

Why do you continue to use phrases such as "well-documented" and "textbook example"?

Are you aware of what work has been done in Microeconomics with respect to market pricing and tax credits?

Joe - as always, I'm impressed by your professionalism and level-headed thinking.

It's next to impossible for this argument to progress based on facts because, of course, we don't have access to a statistically relevant sample of quotes before and after the tax incentives. And likewise, while you may be ethical and charge a fair price for your services, but that says nothing about anybody else. So this discussion is a stalemate.

Thanks for contributing meaningfully to the conversation.

(i.e. citing a low average purchase price in a tax credit year as proof that tax credits raised geo prices).

Are you just ignoring things on purpose? I already explained several times that the entire study was done and in the bag before the 30% tax credits were in effect.

Tinoue,
I have actually written an article for elsewhere stating that prices have risen due to tax credits, but only due to things we discussed previously.
To sum: install price up ~5%, warranties up 100-500% in length, efficiency up 10%, R410 saving the ozone (depending on your position) up to priceless.
So yes, tax incentives that require EnergyStar compliance have up the price of geo. Not sure it's the 30% some believe.
I also agree this is a stalemate which is why I'd prefer the thread were dropped value is nil.
J

Turn key geothermal for new construction is being done here for 5,100.00 a ton including the vertical drilling. The prices in my kneck of the woods continue to drop due to the number of players in the market. Our market is geo saturated, i.e. geo is not the exception it is allmost the standard. Arguments touting contractors who raised or gouged pricing due to tax incentives surely happned but there will allways be contractors doing fair market pricing based on the market. It was no fluke that the tax incentive was set at 30%. The gross blanket statement is that the 30% of the cost of a geo system is the exchanger, was the govt. attempt to level the playing field with other heating and cooling systems so that geo would be a "no brainer". As a consumer if yoU feel you are being hosed, keep shopping.
Eric

Oak Ridge has a 2008 study that makes some sense of this thread: http://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/files/Pub13831.pdf

The Cliff Notes: The report lists just 16 states that had competitive GSHP markets in '08. Make that parts of 16 states. You'd find sharp pencils in Indianapolis, for example, but not in Gary. The pricing difference is startling if you believe ORNL. Well drilling in uncompetitive markets could cost two to five times what homeowners pay in competitive markets.

One of the study's recommendations is to tap the bargaining power of utilities. The utility would install the ground loop for customers, owning and maintaining it. Homeowners would pay a small monthly fee as they do now for electric grid infrastructure. The study reports that utilities aren't overly enthusiastic. (OK, there is one: http://www.dmea.com/member_info/Earth%20Energy%20Tariff%20Announced%20on%20Earth%20Day%204-23-2008.pdf )

While the study doesn'[t make this point, you'd expect to find stronger GSHP markets where utilities have supported it historically with pricing or promotion.

So Waterpirate's advice to shop for an installer is good advice. But you may first want to determine if GSHP in your area is ready for prime time.

I'm working with a remote client in an area with $0.20 electricity, <$1.50 natural gas therms, and $15k / ton geo quotes.

I was initially engaged to evaluate geo quotes...short answer - geo ain't happening there

15K a TON!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's nothing but a scam....

I do not share your confidence in that conclusion.

It is a case of very high local market pricing; the market being NYC...high taxes, high labor, horrible traffic, etc. Basically nothing is easy, and prices reflect that.

Absent NG, geo would make sense.

I can see it costing more up there than in the SE but still those prices seem insane. Are the trades up there all unionized? The material prices are the same, the equipt to dig a trench or drill a well costs the same so that basically says labor is thru the roof. Is this correct? Traffic can be bad anywhere. When I lived in Atlanta I was only 11 miles from work but I was lucky if it took me 45 mins to get there.