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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 29 Nov 2011 06:34 AM |
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ICFHYBRID
You like our govt. want small business to take all the risks, bear all the burden, pay the most taxes and still provide the consumer a product at cost or less. It's called socialism, and it does not work cause gray flanel is to hot in the summer.
I see you had nothing to say about the cost of icf that I provided.
Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 29 Nov 2011 07:51 AM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 28 Nov 2011 12:00 PM
As always ICF when called to substantiate your assertions, you elect instead to change the argument. I appreciate your very experienced contributions to so many things here, but your running interference for questionable business practices weighs the other side down..... Again care to substantiate? Why are details important?..........well $13,000 extra on a 25 ton with radiant and vertical wells etc. might make bidders within 5% of one another (chump change). $13,000 difference on a 3 ton open loop replacement might make one bidder 2.5 times the other (gouging). Apples to apples- easy. I'm not running interference for unscrupulous contractors and I have agreed they are out there, my time in logic 101 as well as law enforcement simply make me bridle when people don't support their allegations. With so many geo contractors "gouging" is no one able to find and support one example? Provide detail so we can offer a clear picture of what gouging is? It is like a debate with a child saying "ICF has a big nose"......have you ever seen ICFs nose?......"His haircut's funny".....Who has a smaller nose?............."why are you defending him!".............. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 29 Nov 2011 08:34 AM |
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You like our govt Yeah, I'm American. What are you? want small business to take all the risks Ummmmm....why not? That's how they get better and do well. No risk, no gain. Or something like that.... pay the most taxes ? !! ? still provide the consumer a product at cost or less ?11? It's called socialism *chuckle* Got issues, do you? gray flanel is to hot in the summer. ? !! ? Funnier, but still no sense. I see you had nothing to say about the cost of icf that I provided. You provided nothing about the cost of ICF. All I saw was a rant with poor spelling and grammar, but since you expect a comment, there it is. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 29 Nov 2011 08:52 AM |
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Again care to substantiate? Sure. Dig down and find the thread in which fraudulent accounting and business practices are used to justify the (high) cost of a geothermal install. It was very ham-handed, but presumably you liked it until I pointed out the problems contained therein. And, then, once it was "tainted", weren't you one of the ones who lobbied for the thread to be removed or at least, unstickied so it would s-l-o-w-l-y slide away? Ha Ha. I'm not running interference for unscrupulous contractors and I have agreed they are out there, Have you? I must have missed it. might make one bidder 2.5 times the other (gouging). And there it is again. It has to be 2.5X higher to be gouging? |
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 29 Nov 2011 12:17 PM |
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You provided nothing about the cost of ICF. All I saw was a rant with poor spelling and grammar, but since you expect a comment, there it is.
Bingo, change the subject to grammar. Bingo, I provided you with the same amount of detail about my ICF bid as you provided about the geo bid sans this one was that and that one was worse. Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 29 Nov 2011 10:53 PM |
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I can't believe what I'm reading on this particular thread and that my colleagues are actually answering some of this drivel. The fact is geothermal costs so much because in most cases it's worth it. Geothermal is different than most other businesses because it takes serious technical expertise, meticulous workmanship and a customer centric attitude to do it, and do it right. Maintaining insurance, equipment, staff and all the other ancillary items costs money. It's not only about the cost of the equipment. Please don't begrudge a contractor a fair profit.
We always recommend prospective clients get more than one estimate for the work. We educate them and at the end of the day let the chips fall where they may. I can tell you on many occasions we weren't the lowest bid but the client bought from us anyway because they felt comfortable with us. Then after speaking with half a dozen good references, they felt even better. Certainly there are gougers out there and there are lowballers too. Both categories will fail over time. Unfortunately both give our trade a bad name.
Most importantly, pricing is very different in Ohio for example than it is in NY's Westchester County. Everything cost more here than nearly anywhere else - and the price for our geothermal design and installation reflects that. So does the technology. A pump and dump system is WAY less costly than a deep well water loop or direct exchange system. How about after installation service? How about honoring the warranties? I could go on and on why pricing is different and why it costs "so much." We have clients who think geothermal is "cheap" and others who say it's "stupidly expensive." From our perspective installing geo isn't cheap (despite what some clients say). Educate yourself, check references and make an informed decision.
Paul
Total Green
www.TotalGreenUS.com
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 30 Nov 2011 08:02 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 29 Nov 2011 07:51 AM
It is like a debate with a child saying "ICF has a big nose"......have you ever seen ICFs nose?......"His haircut's funny".....Who has a smaller nose?............."why are you defending him!".............. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 30 Nov 2011 10:59 PM |
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<!--[if gte mso 9]>
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Below you will find one geo 4 ton compared to one air to air
4 ton. I ‘think’ I’ve found a comparison
between the two on prices for just the compressor and air handler. The air to
air has a SEER of 17.5(rheem which is the only one I can find on the web to buy
direct) and the geo has an EER of 27.
Both have 2 stages and both have variable speed. This is the closest I can find
with air to air. I can find several DIY for the geo but very hard to find one
for the air to air to buy direct on the web. The geo is approx $6250 and the
air to air is approx. $5250. So very little difference in actual costs, actually
just 12% more for the geo unit! The duct cost is the same for both. Add approx
$600 for the desup for the geo and
approx $1000 extra for the extra plumbing and elec for the geo system for the
desup.. For a 4 ton geo that would be approx. 3200’ of ground loop. Approx cost
for the slinkies would be around $2500. Plus the digging for the trench, the cost of flushing out the pipes, the pump
itself, manifold . etc.
Lets just say that it looks like geo units are approx. 15%
higher than air to air units according to this. If this is not correct let me
know.
Paul, all of the expenses you mentioned with your company overhead
would be the same for anyone in the HVAC business. That info is totally irrelevant
for increasing the cost of geo(unless your company owns the backhoe). Since you install geo, what would you charge
to install a 4 ton geo system(with desuper)(ductwork is already in place and
meets what is required for geo) with horizontal slinkies(plenty of room, the
ground is flat)?
http://ingramswaterandair.com/bryant-geothermal-heat-pump-system-p-17057.html
http://www.acdirect.com/rheem_heat_pump_.php
Again, It looks like geo units are approx. 15% higher than
air to air. So the only additional costs are the desuper and putting the pipe
in the ground. That’s NOT that much more if the pipe is put in horizontal !!!!!
Geodean and joe…..your quotes you said were in the low 20
grand range. What tonnage was that? I know labor rates vary all over the place in different areas of the country but the parts don't! I know this will increase the cost of the system but not THAT much overall. NOT 10 of thousands more!
I still don’t see why
folks on here are getting astronomical quotes!!!!!!!!!!!
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 01 Dec 2011 12:25 AM |
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I still don’t see why folks on here are getting astronomical quotes!!!!!!!!!!! How about this one? WF Envision NSW 5-Ton Geo-Thermal Water-To-Water System (Heating Only) 120g Space Heat Buffer Tank & Pump Heat Exchanger w/ 80g DHW Tank & Pump Hydronics Kit 5-Ton Loop Package Intellistart Soft-starter Piping for interconnect Necessary Hardware Mechanical Permit Installation labor Manufacturer's 10-Year Parts & Labor Warranty Total - $31,000 * Note - Electrical and Excavation are "extra", i.e. NOT included. Radiant heat controls (10 zone system) are an extra $25,000 |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 01 Dec 2011 03:52 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Dec 2011 12:25 AM
I still don’t see why folks on here are getting astronomical quotes!!!!!!!!!!! How about this one?
WF Envision NSW 5-Ton Geo-Thermal Water-To-Water System (Heating Only)
120g Space Heat Buffer Tank & Pump
Heat Exchanger w/ 80g DHW Tank & Pump
Hydronics Kit
5-Ton Loop Package
Intellistart Soft-starter
Piping for interconnect
Necessary Hardware
Mechanical Permit
Installation labor
Manufacturer's 10-Year Parts & Labor Warranty
Total - $31,000
* Note - Electrical and Excavation are "extra", i.e. NOT included.
Radiant heat controls (10 zone system) are an extra $25,000
And not even a DHW buffer tank, thus cutting a corner...! Too bad!
Is this with or without an outside loop?
This system with DHW buffer and outside horizontal loop would run about $27K with us. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 01 Dec 2011 09:33 PM |
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Is this with or without an outside loop? I assume that's what a "5-ton loop package" is, but note that it doesn't include the excavation. At first, they wanted $30K+ for "drilling", until I pointed out that we had discussed a horizontal loop on my 20 acres. That brought the price down to $22K, but when I asked why so much, they said "Good news, they got a special deal on the excavation and it would be only $17K." After I pointed out that an excavator and operator could be had for a whole week for $4000 retail, they said I should provide the excavation as they couldn't get that good a deal, so they removed it from the bid. |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 02 Dec 2011 08:30 AM |
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Rob,
How about if you change the title of this thread to :
Why are some geo bids so high?
Then we could answer the question.
As it is now, you are asking us to defend bids that are indefensible.
For sure there a bidders out there who are gouging the unsuspecting public.
This is not new nor is it only geo installers.
There are high profile contractors in my city that prey on the elderly by offering free furnace inspections and tune ups.
Then they tell them that their furnace
is leaking CO into their house and they will die if they sleep another night in the house.
The price those scoundrels charge for replacing the furnace is 3-4 times what it should be.
Like any business geo has its bad apples. I don't think that any of them post to this forum.
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 02 Dec 2011 12:15 PM |
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Our prices are around $1700-$1900 /ton for a horizontal loopfield. Turnkey.
Get another contractor/bidder. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 02 Dec 2011 06:02 PM |
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only $17K." After I pointed out that an excavator and operator could be had for a whole week for $4000 I'm not surprised. Shop carefully and depending on your skills, consider some DIY. |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 02 Dec 2011 10:20 PM |
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Posted By docjenser on 02 Dec 2011 12:15 PM
Our prices are around $1700-$1900 /ton for a horizontal loopfield. Turnkey.
Get another contractor/bidder.
What does that include? Where are you located? I understand that there are bad apple contractors out there. It just seems over the last 4 yrs that so many people have come here with outrageous quotes. Alot of folks come to this forum to learn about geo and when all they see is these kinds of quotes, all it does is turn them off to geo. If I could have found an air to air SEER 19-20 on the web to purchase directly, it might be very close to what a geo unit would cost. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 03 Dec 2011 01:16 AM |
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Get another contractor/bidder. I contacted more than a dozen and had half that many actually come up with something. |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 03 Dec 2011 08:54 AM |
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Posted By robinnc on 02 Dec 2011 10:20 PM
I understand that there are bad apple contractors out there. It just seems over the last 4 yrs that so many people have come here with outrageous quotes. Alot of folks come to this forum to learn about geo and when all they see is these kinds of quotes, all it does is turn them off to geo.
rob, what is your solution to this? I always tell my employees "if you are going to bring me a problem, bring me your solution!" |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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toddm
Veteran Member
Posts:1152
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| 03 Dec 2011 11:14 AM |
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Not to be glib, geodean, but there is nothing to do but let the market work as Adam Smith envisioned it. Efficient geo contractors cut costs, improve quality, survive and prosper. Inefficient geo contractors don't. What distinguishes one from the other, in my interaction with non-geo contractors, is that the latter are too quick to say "I can't do it for less than x." The folks who bid less than x presumably spend more time figuring out how, or are bidding just to cover their monthly nut. I don't care which it is, and neither did Smith. My role is simply to negotiate the best deal possible. If it is a poor one from the contractor's side of the table, it's stlll survival of the fittest?
Trouble is, geo (and ICF and SIPs and solar and wind and so on) don't generate enough sales in most markets to start the ball rolling, this according to an ORNL study. Geo contractors are particularly hobbled in this regard, ORNL says, because they subcontract drilling work to companies that often are neither efficient nor interested. If that is the case, the geo contractor is either going to step up or he isn't.
My recommendation is to drop the can't-do-it-for-less-than posts on this forum. Buyers change as the economy changes; the folks who have money today are not likely to be generous or sympathetic. If you can point shoppers to serious players in their area, so much the better.
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 03 Dec 2011 12:10 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 03 Dec 2011 11:14 AM
Not to be glib, geodean,....
todd, you have very well stated the obvious answer to rob's question. I simply wanted him to realize that coming here and complaining about some high geo bids does nothing to solve the problem since none of us here are the culprits. |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 04 Dec 2011 01:58 AM |
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I find that most outrages bids come from HVAC companies who are unfamiliar to geo who want to cover their back against the unknown. Contractors who do only geo know what to expect, have a routine and work efficient, and avoid mistakes. That way they can be cost effective and still make money. It is called a win-win. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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