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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 08 Dec 2011 01:10 PM |
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You can buy a brand new car for $2.500, I just don't see many driving around. I guess you're having a hard time getting into the spirit of this. Our pricing for 4 ton CM tranquility 27 (2 stage)... See, that's a lot more helpful. since they deliver thermal energy to your home without burning anything. I'm sure you didn't forget that "things" were burned to make electricity or that ASHPs can do the same thing without the ..."complexity", I guess you called it. I proudly say that we do not have any unhappy customers That's great. Judging from the number of complaints seen here, that's certainly not always the case with other contractors. a consumer like you who gets an unreasonable amount of estimates How many is "unreasonable"? I know how much things should cost and when every one of the first 3 or 4 are suspicious, I begin to wonder what's up. I think most people just assume that's how it is and then give up (as we have seen here on several occasions), or they just bite the bullet and go for the gouge. I think that's exactly what the bidders are counting on. |
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lax1823
New Member
Posts:1
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| 08 Dec 2011 01:15 PM |
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I'll add my homeowner experience. We installed a 4-ton Climate Master Tranquility 2 stage geo with a 5 ton loop field in April. We are located in the western NY region. Package included, desuperheater, HRV, loop field, additional duct work for a newly finished bonus room, all eletric etc. In other words a complete turnkey solution. Total price before NYS and federal rebates/credits was $25K.
We received several quotes all in the same ballpark. Contractor was great to work with. Electric usage over the summer was about 50% what we experienced in previous years and the limited cooling season to date has been good as well.
Factoring in the NYS rebate and Federal Credit my payback should be about 6 years. We retrofitted from propane.
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 08 Dec 2011 04:34 PM |
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$25,000 for us as well (pre-tax credit.) System details in my signature. Payback less than 6 years (after tax credit.) Best "investment" I ever made.  |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 09 Dec 2011 07:52 AM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 08 Dec 2011 10:21 AM
Well, there was some interest in seeing how far they would go. ;-)
"Your effort does not seem to be to get a good,reputable contractor at the right price, but to "pay back" those guys who gave you high price quotes. Get over it"...................
No kidding you've got way too much time on your hands.
then educate with real numbers. Isn't that what I've done?
...........Umm no. Getting quantifiable numbers from you is like pulling teeth. Frankly I think you prefer to snipe vs make an actual case to support your points.
................And, I'm not the only one who has pointed out that entire geothermal systems could be bought and delivered to your home for $7,500 or even less..............
Sweet, does that include the electrical service upgrade and excavation? Permits? Labor? Buffer tank? Plumbing? Duct system or transitions?
One of the DIY websites that offers installation was looking for installation contractors. When I asked about the above mentioned they said it was extra, as was labor warranty etc.
No "entire systems" can not be shipped to your home for $7,500. Only stuff that appears to be complete- to an ignorant shopper.
Is there some reason, with all your experience, that you don't offer what might be fair in certain circumstances?
I don't know what the last comment means. But I'll try: In my experience.....Fair would be supporting an allegation of wrong doing. Unfair might be unsubstantiated claims of gouging or intentionally wasting a contractor's time by "seeing how far they'll go". |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 09 Dec 2011 08:51 AM |
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No "entire systems" can not be shipped to your home for $7,500. Only stuff that appears to be complete- to an ignorant shopper. You're just playing with semantics, Joe Word games. Who do you think you're entertaining? Everyone knows a system would have to be installed, and that miscellaneous items would be required to fit it in. I laid that all out when I posted it earlier this year. |
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SCIP Panel
New Member
Posts:50
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| 10 Dec 2011 11:46 PM |
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Posted By arkie6 on 25 Nov 2011 12:44 PM
Yeah, well drilling is generally $5.00 - $7.50 per foot around here in central Arkansas plus the cost of casing if needed (not generally needed with geothermal).
Assuming 200' of well per ton of HVAC, you are looking at around $1000 to $1500 per ton for well drilling costs.
Drilling bids started at $15.00 around Denver Then add for side walk access permits, safety signs, pump truck, better grout than .40 KW.
I am told it costs $5-7 to run a rig in Colorado.
So why did my complete Geo/pump install range from 10 to 30K. I am a contractor not a home owner and was up front I would get three bids as Geo was new to me. I was also clear I would be paying contractor prices.
But hey when I was in Europe I heard they got 40-60 euros to drill! Hopefully that was per meter.
Sorry for this thread drift
About eight test holes were done in Oklahoma early this year.
Several different pipes from the US and Europe were used with different grouts and depths. All with the same heat pump(s)
Some of the parties were or may have been IGSPA, University of Oklahoma, Habit for Humanity, Water furnace and Amasond.
The same Heat Pump Company installed some Amasond pipe at the factory as well for in house testing.
Any of you know anything about it or where I can find the results?
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 11 Dec 2011 06:55 AM |
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It is important to keep in mind that drilling costs vary wildly due to local conditions and regulation. So talking about a cost per foot to drill that is not applicable to your specific area serves no real benefit, except for wishing you could move your project to an area where the costs are less.
Competition is a good thing but competance is more important. It has been my experiance that finding a true geo proffesional is alot harder than one would think. As recently as Friday I found myself educating someone about the use and instalation of a slave relay, while on the job at hand that required one????
Just for fun to make you squeal, we provide 3/4 x 200 for each ton of load, the manifolding, the trenching, the circ pump, connection to the machine, addition of anti freeze at a volume of 20%, and back your project with design build info courtesy of "loop link". In essance we build and construct the entire wet end of your project.
We do all this and provide engineering and service after the sale at a rate of $1,500.00 per ton of load. We also do not provide any contractor pricing or breaks for frequent flyers, everyone pays the same. I bet you wished your project was here on Delmarva?
Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 11 Dec 2011 10:12 PM |
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I've seen more reasonable quotes(or already installed) on here in the last week than I've seen in 4 1/2 yrs! That's why I wish the mods would sticky this thread so folks from here on out can see what it 'should' cost!!
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 14 Dec 2011 09:06 AM |
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I have mentioned many times more 15 to 25 k systems in the last couple of years than are in this thread as have others, but people treat high bids like they are reporters in sweeps week. Scant context, little contrast....the more sensational the better.
I find it fascinating that someone who has admittedly never shopped for geo and admittedly neglected to consider or minimized job costs (both in this very thread) authors this complaint.
In the end folks are in charge of their own education on local job costs. Folks who look for the lowest bidder are more often disappointed than people who pay more.
There are both marketing and service companies in most any kind of contracting biz. Marketing companies will spend 10 times the money on sales commission, advertising, staff, store front etc. than most service companies. That has to be paid for as well. They will generally have a higher price but not necessarily a higher margin.
Without benefit of context (including company overhead) a price tag does not determine margin, money left after the bills are paid does.
The real answer to why geo costs so much is that a closed loop system (at least in mid MI) requires a new (seperate) electrical service, as much excavation and piping as a new drain field, the equivelant of a new high end furnace and ASHP, duct work, plumbing, multiple permits........one county charges us $500/well so it added $3,000 to a six ton vertical where 15 miles away we had no well permit cost at all (this is also where geography impacts cost of doing business). If one does not consider all these factors, he/she will never understand prices of geo (or anything for that matter).
As always in my neck of the woods, the only thing more expensive is anything else you wish to heat your home with. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 14 Dec 2011 09:25 AM |
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I agree with you, Joe; I don't think geothermal systems should cost as much as some of the bid examples we have seen here. The $15K - $25K range you mention seems much more reasonable. |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 15 Dec 2011 10:21 PM |
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ditto what joe said. But joe, I have NOT seen anywhere near what you say about how many quotes were in that range. The few I've seen on here might have been one of your posts. I've been on here every day for 4 1/2 yrs and have only seen maybe a hand full of quotes in that range. I have seen many quotes ranging from 40-80 grand over that time. The contractors that quote those numbers for a reg. size house ought to be put outta business because all they are doing it giving geo a bad name!
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SkyHeating
Basic Member
Posts:203
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| 16 Dec 2011 02:02 AM |
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Posted By robinnc on 15 Dec 2011 10:21 PM
ditto what joe said. But joe, I have NOT seen anywhere near what you say about how many quotes were in that range. The few I've seen on here might have been one of your posts. I've been on here every day for 4 1/2 yrs and have only seen maybe a hand full of quotes in that range. I have seen many quotes ranging from 40-80 grand over that time. The contractors that quote those numbers for a reg. size house ought to be put outta business because all they are doing it giving geo a bad name!
Did you ever think that maybe you see quotes in the higher range here because customers on this forum are more educated and thus adding more bells and whistles/ features?
I put out two proposals this week. One for $17k and another for $110k guess who wanted more and which house has radiant and a pool and a ducted four zone system with all new ductwork and air cleaners and HRV units vs who has just a base system with no DHW even... |
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Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 16 Dec 2011 02:30 AM |
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customers on this forum are more educated and thus adding more bells and whistles/ features? I'm trying to get a handle on this one. Does this mean that your potential customer with "just a base system with no DHW even..." could be considered "less" educated? I am curious about this. When someone is getting a nice new geo system, what makes them eschew the DHW option? Doesn't seem logical. |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 16 Dec 2011 11:25 PM |
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Posted By SkyHeating on 16 Dec 2011 02:02 AM
Posted By robinnc on 15 Dec 2011 10:21 PM
ditto what joe said. But joe, I have NOT seen anywhere near what you say about how many quotes were in that range. The few I've seen on here might have been one of your posts. I've been on here every day for 4 1/2 yrs and have only seen maybe a hand full of quotes in that range. I have seen many quotes ranging from 40-80 grand over that time. The contractors that quote those numbers for a reg. size house ought to be put outta business because all they are doing it giving geo a bad name!
Did you ever think that maybe you see quotes in the higher range here because customers on this forum are more educated and thus adding more bells and whistles/ features?
I put out two proposals this week. One for $17k and another for $110k guess who wanted more and which house has radiant and a pool and a ducted four zone system with all new ductwork and air cleaners and HRV units vs who has just a base system with no DHW even...
What s/f are those 2 houses? I know radiant adds a hellava lot to the system. Several HRV units? |
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SkyHeating
Basic Member
Posts:203
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| 17 Dec 2011 01:25 PM |
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No it doesn't mean the smaller one is less educated but they have not done near the research and don't have as large of a wants list. Project timeframe from meeting til completion about 3 months. Large job is meeting til completion almost 1.5 years. Which customer will ultimately do more research and spend more time looking into this, I would say in my experience the larger jobs take more time to verify and research and thus may be more of the people posting here. Homes are about 2700 sq feet smaller and 3800 sq feet new construction larger.
All I am trying to say is pricing really ranges and can range inside one company like mine not just one company gouging and one undercutting. We use the same pricing for each and this is the price difference on two jobs. So the 40k bids here may not be the same as the 20-30k jobs many of us usually do. There is no such thing as an apples to apples comparison when it comes to geo. |
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Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/
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greentree
Advanced Member
Posts:587
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| 18 Dec 2011 09:49 AM |
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Well I just wasted 25 minutes of my time, thought maybe I could get some good geo info, instead heard ridiculous arguments from nightmare consumers and business owners trying to defend themselves.
From those complaining about costs, getting tons of bids, demanding breakdowns, referencing vague posts regarding high costs and then finding kits on the internet and expecting a professional installation to be near that cost.....seriously? If I met you in the field and you started on these tangents I would gouge the sh!t out of you, (as someone said before you need to realize you are the reason their is a PITA tax) and hopefully you wouldn't take my bid and I would be happy because you're the worst type of client to have: you're never happy, it's never cheap enough and you've already made up your mind that you're the expert, a true scab to our economy and the reason our manufacturing sector is located in China. Your socialist mentality qualifies as domestic terrorism. How's that for assumptions.
The problem is for most of you whining, it's not just geo, it's your mentality of being married to the dollar and that's the root problem.
Think I'm wrong? Reread this entire thread from the beginning, better yet find someone else to read this thread from beginning to end and ask them what they think. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 18 Dec 2011 09:59 AM |
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How's that for assumptions. Yup. You're making them. So, you don't feel consumers should shop around much? |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 18 Dec 2011 10:36 AM |
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Posted By robinnc on 15 Dec 2011 10:21 PM
I've been on here every day for 4 1/2 yrs and have only seen maybe a hand full of quotes in that range. I have seen many quotes ranging from 40-80 grand over that time.
The bids that get posted to this board are not at all a true cross section of all the bids out there. Therefore you can't draw too many conclusions from them.
Posted By robinnc on 15 Dec 2011 10:21 PM
The contractors that quote those numbers for a reg. size house ought to be put outta business because all they are doing it giving geo a bad name!
I think we all agree here, you can stop beating that dead horse  |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 18 Dec 2011 10:24 PM |
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Posted By geodean on 18 Dec 2011 10:36 AM
Posted By robinnc on 15 Dec 2011 10:21 PM
I've been on here every day for 4 1/2 yrs and have only seen maybe a hand full of quotes in that range. I have seen many quotes ranging from 40-80 grand over that time.
The bids that get posted to this board are not at all a true cross section of all the bids out there. Therefore you can't draw too many conclusions from them.
Posted By robinnc on 15 Dec 2011 10:21 PM
The contractors that quote those numbers for a reg. size house ought to be put outta business because all they are doing it giving geo a bad name!
I think we all agree here, you can stop beating that dead horse
You're right geodean. My only experience with geo costs came from this web site and another one. To be honest, over the last 4 yrs I was starting to be against geo because of all the outrageous quotes I've seen on here and the other site. But the ones that posted last week shows that geo is actually affordable for folks. MORE COMPETITION!!!!!!!!!!! |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 19 Dec 2011 10:04 PM |
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Posted By SkyHeating on 16 Dec 2011 02:02 AM
Posted By robinnc on 15 Dec 2011 10:21 PM
ditto what joe said. But joe, I have NOT seen anywhere near what you say about how many quotes were in that range. The few I've seen on here might have been one of your posts. I've been on here every day for 4 1/2 yrs and have only seen maybe a hand full of quotes in that range. I have seen many quotes ranging from 40-80 grand over that time. The contractors that quote those numbers for a reg. size house ought to be put outta business because all they are doing it giving geo a bad name!
Did you ever think that maybe you see quotes in the higher range here because customers on this forum are more educated and thus adding more bells and whistles/ features?
I put out two proposals this week. One for $17k and another for $110k guess who wanted more and which house has radiant and a pool and a ducted four zone system with all new ductwork and air cleaners and HRV units vs who has just a base system with no DHW even...
WOW! I was expecting the 110 grand was for a house in the 12-15,000 sf range. I know radiant runs high(from what I've read on here around 10-15 grand more) have no idea about a pool. But really, 110 grand for a 3800sf house?? IMO, any home owner that spends that much on an HVAC for that size house has way too much money in their hands and no common sense.... |
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