I have seen people spend $110K on HVAC, on 3500 - 4000 sqf houses. You can spend $12/sqf for high end, top of the floor radiant, for example Rehau system, with aluminum track panels. Very even heat, very efficient due to low supply temperature needed. That is $45K right there. Then you might have to drill. So a 6 ton vertical system with high end equipment might run another 40K. Now it is an old house, which might need 12 ton capacity, so increase the system costs by 65%. Or you need heat recovery 5-10 K. Now you want to have 4 zones for A/C, there goes 12 K for ductwork and the zone controls. Or you want full time domestic hot water. Add another heat pump and a bit more outside capacity. Now you want to heat the pool in the summer.....
The point is that is it everyone's own preference how and where he or she spends their money. You have no right to judge people who have different priorities than you, and find it worth spending more money on things which make them comfortable.
You can drive a Chevy for $20K, but the Mercedes S class starts around $110K. Now, does everyone who drives it does not have common sense? I doubt it, otherwise they would not be able to afford one.

i have got quotes ranging from 59k to 120k in winnipeg manitoba for a system for a 2800 sqft house that includes forced air and infloor heat with 3 zones

Why such a large difference in quotes?

WOW! I was expecting the 110 grand was for a house in the 12-15,000 sf range. I know radiant runs high(from what I've read on here around 10-15 grand more) have no idea about a pool. But really, 110 grand for a 3800sf house?? IMO, any home owner that spends that much on an HVAC for that size house has way too much money in their hands and no common sense....


I guess that neatly sums up my mild irritation with this thread Rob. Again as someone who has never shopped for geo, who admittedly has little knowledge of the man hours and cost of installation, you author a thread that assumes a premise which you scantily support with anecdotal information, meanwhile discarding candid conversations about cost contributors........and then follow up by questioning the common sense of someone else with again with very little info...... Common sense to me suggests getting all the details and digesting the information before drawing conclusions........ I'm not angry, nor do I dislike you. I think your question is an honest one, but instead of a chance to digest cost contributors this thread has turned into a debate of whether gouging exists............ BTW recent 15-18ksf homes we looked at had 1 bid in the 80k range (retrofit six furnaces with split geo and pond loop) and one in the 300K range (significant radiant, vertical loops, complete duct system, wtw, pool, hydronic air handlers, etc)...... How could similar homes have a nearly quarter million dollar price difference in systems?.......If truely curious, you could ask and try to quantify cost contributors.

When it comes to custom homes and mechanical systems, prices can vary all over the planet. I can recall a bid recently on a design build for a 7000 sq. ft home . There was no geo considered but the homeowner wanted radiant and cooling along with solar thermal, pv and pool heating.The homeowner about fainted with our quote and decided to break up the job and allow others to bid on the seperate portions of the job. The irony was we were called back after the fact to try to make the systems work. We couldn't do anything for the homeowner just short of re-building the home. Often you get what you pay for.If my memory serves me it was somewhere in the $300k range.

I don't make my comparisons to the astronomical blunders that other people can make, particularly if they have too much money to spend and too little time to monitor what service providers have the penchant to do with it.

It's far more useful to think about what the fair price of a unit can be, assuming honest and competitive bidding and what the fair and reasonable labor costs of installing it are.

In other words, start at the bottom and go up from there. The truth is that geosystems are basically like any other system with the addition of a ground loop.

I like car analogies such as docs. If we were to ask the question why are cars sooooo expensive and site the Mercedes as proof, one would think all cars were $110k which is of course ridiculous.
Where the analogy parts company with geo reality is that the salesman hasn't the same design responsibility as the geo installer though it probably takes longer to sell a 100K car (and pays better) than a 20K car.
 
To suggest the only difference between geo and conventional hvac is the loop field is to suggest that selling higher end product takes the same amount of time, same amount of infrastructure, same amount of permits, requires the same education as the low end equipment seller, offers no additional exposure, no additional licensing or organizational fees and continuing ed requirements, etc; is also ridiculous.

Hope everyone is having a great and safe holiday season.

To suggest the only difference between geo and conventional hvac is the loop field is to suggest that selling higher end product takes the same amount of time, same amount of infrastructure, same amount of permits, requires the same education as the low end equipment seller, offers no additional exposure, no additional licensing or organizational fees and continuing ed requirements, etc; is also ridiculous.

"High end" and "Low end"? "More education"? Ha Ha. Amusing. The differences between geothermal and any other residential heating and cooling systems just don't translate into the kinds of premiums that we have seen here, particularly not for the things you are citing. Licensing and organizational fees? *Chuckle* Really now.

We all get and have agreed that there are gougers out there ICF but:

It costs more to be a geo contractor period.
More equipment (thousands in fusion and flush equipment), more permits, more exposure (meaning more to go wrong which can cost you money), bigger vehicles (slinkies don't fit in an E150), there are continuing education requirements for IGSHPA and membership fees, more permits etc. Putting any material in the ground, bodies of water, wet-lands or water tables often requires additional knowledge, licensing, time and permits with entities a fossil installer never has to deal with.These all weigh in.

When discussing "starting at the bottom" when shopping then yes you will get a low end mechanic. Lowest bidders feature "one size fits all" mentalities spending no time on duct design or equipment sizing. maybe they will keep your house comfy, maybe not. Some of these guys will even try geo-cheap.

Are we trying to answer why geo is soooo expensive? That's the original question. Again we can discuss contributors to geo price if anyone truley wants to understand, but if they are to be disregarded as insignificant (as though an accumulation of many small expenses does not equate to big expense), then there is little sense in any of us here who can answer the question, trying to help.

And- yes to suggest the "only difference is the loops" is ridiculous and ignorant, one could educate themselves past the position, but only if one cared to. I'm here to help.

It costs more to be a geo contractor period.

Any specialty and any branch of specialty service is going to have specialty costs. Geo installation is not unique that way.

but if they are to be disregarded as insignificant

Although that is a generalization, it is a good way to describe many of the things that have been mentioned here. They are insignificant in terms of the alarmingly large premiums on geo quotes which have attracted attention and which the title of this thread probably refers to.

And- yes to suggest the "only difference is the loops" is ridiculous and ignorant,

Really? That's what it looks like to me. Other heat pumps have a compressor and a couple of heat exchangers and, of course ducting or tubing to move the heat around. All the geo has beyond that is a loop and pump to get fluid to a heat exchanger.

How about if you guys agree to disagree? This thread serves no purpose. It is a waste of time and needs to go away.

This thread serves no purpose. It is a waste of time and needs to go away.

I disagree.

I think people who are considering more efficient home heating solutions need to hear that geothermal is affordable.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 26 Dec 2011 12:01 PM


I think people who are considering more efficient home heating solutions need to hear that geothermal is affordable.

I agree, but they will not hear that from reading this thread.

I agree, but they will not hear that from reading this thread.

Not sure why the industry guys are trying to push the perception of geo as a high-end system even higher. First, they were talking about $80K systems, then it went up to $115K and finally $300K. And what were those comparisons with the Mercedes vehicles about?

I've pointed out all along that you can buy a system where the price is controlled and have it installed locally for quite a bit less than the outrageous quotes people bring here. Maybe some of you guys should be discussing how you can put systems in more efficiently and for LESS money rather than trying to impress everyone with how costly it is.

Yes, they will geodean. This thread changed my mind about geo finally! I was proved wrong a couple of weeks ago that folks 'can' afford geo if they are in an area that has competition! I'm talking about a basic system(the way most ASHP are installed) with horizontal field and the desup. There are ALOT of gouges contractors out there. I've seen it over and over again on here over the years. That's why I wish the mods would sticky this so those folks can read this thread and get a good idea of what it 'should' cost! I can guarantee we will see more folks post on here in the future getting quotes that are outrageous for what they want.

This thread at times gets very tedious, however observing some of the ego centric posts is at times amusing. I can speak mostly from a well drilling perspective and can state and back up with invoices and cancelled checks some relevant examples. In our area your average 4" diameter well drilling job can range from $2,200 to over $25,000. Why the large range? An incomplete list follows: access, depth surface drilling conditions, subsurface drilling conditions, mob andd demob costs per diem expenses pumping water level elevation of home digging conditions pump selection well screen selection need for double casing site limitations local county and state requirements water and mud control drilling fluid selections specific rig for job etc. Etc. These are probably only one half the potential variables of a job. Please note we are normally the highest price well driller in our area. Also note feedback from suppliers and slesman tell us that we are also busiest of the small drilling companies. Also note that yesterday (Christmas afternoon) one of my men and I were replacing a burned out pump. Customer could get no other company. I post this in hopes that everyone has had a Merry Christmas. Also hoping that some will look closely in the mirror and see past the ego that controls them. Amen

My point is that there is too much bickering and postulating in this thread. I doubt that most people exploring geo would take the time to read this thread.
If you want to show how affordable geo is, you should start a thread that says : How affordable was your geo system? And encourage people to post about their systems

There is nothing about this thread or the title that would stop someone from posting about how affordable they felt their geo system was.

In fact, the title probably invites more comment on that count than not.

What would be very useful is if all you knowledgeable guys would share the things you do that makes geo more affordable for the consumers. That seems better than discussing how expensive it is for you to provide this great service.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 27 Dec 2011 10:57 AM
What would be very useful is if all you knowledgeable guys would share the things you do that makes geo more affordable for the consumers. That seems better than discussing how expensive it is for you to provide this great service.

I struggle to understand how I can do so. I have posted here that we do horizontal loop fields which are the cheapest type to install (unless you have a pond next door). On the other hand we refuse to install single stage W-A heatpumps, install brand units WF, CM or Hydron) with excellent warranties, almost all of our units come with DSH and 2 tank setup. We go the extra mile, put soft start kits in and use stainless steel screws for the wall seals. In other words, we do everything we can bring to the table which brings value to our customers and makes the system run flawless. With all that, a turnkey 3 ton system is around $21-22K. Now, you want more stuff, yes you will have to pay more for it.
I just got back from our accountant, and we turned a profit this year, about 4.5% of sales. A good year, with not to many setbacks, and we are grateful for it. We will keep it for tougher times to come someday.
So, what do you want me to do here? What are the steps you want me to do to make this more affordable for the consumer? What do you want me to cut?
I start to become offended here by the tone and all the complains about how expensive geo is.
Geo is not cheap! Geo done well is not cheap!
You are talking to guys here who spend a fair amount of time and effort here helping others to trouble shoot, providing technical help and advise in sorting through quotes. Those guys do as good as they can to help others here. Those guys are offended, annoyed and can't stand the whining anymore of some people here who have little understanding about what is involved in installing a geo system and making the customer happy.

Let me give you a hint here: It is not putting a cheaper system in!

To be fair, what has come under fire here is generally the very large quotes from sources outside the forum; the ones that have no visible reasons for the size. I don't recall that your $21K-$22K "turnkey" systems have drawn any criticism at all.

What do you want me to cut?

I suggested that you share the things you do to make geo more affordable, and instead, you mentioned things that make it more expensive. I presume that employing those strategies leads to fewer callbacks and less maintenance thereby reducing the long-term cost of a system for the owner.

Do you have any statistics on the maintenance costs of geo as opposed to more common heating and cooling systems?