Posted By ICFHybrid on 27 Dec 2011 11:52 PM
To be fair, what has come under fire here is generally the very large quotes from sources outside the forum; the ones that have no visible reasons for the size. I don't recall that your $21K-$22K "turnkey" systems have drawn any criticism at all.

What do you want me to cut?

I suggested that you share the things you do to make geo more affordable, and instead, you mentioned things that make it more expensive. I presume that employing those strategies leads to fewer callbacks and less maintenance thereby reducing the long-term cost of a system for the owner.

Do you have any statistics on the maintenance costs of geo as opposed to more common heating and cooling systems?

Our bread and butter systems are 3 tons for $21-22K, however, as mentioned, if the customers wants more, prices do go up, easily 6 digits. The things I have mentioned ensure that the customers has higher efficiency and lesser maintenance. Isn't that what we all want. If you cut those things you might have some of the issues the troubleshooting section is full of. There not many studies or statistics out there. Do a search and you can find some. They all show favorable comparison data for ground source heat pumps.
Again, the way geo works by investing upfront and saving $$$ down the road. There is just a minimum quality standard where I do not go below. There is simply not much more I can cut. The biggest impact on costs is that we work quick and efficient. And that we sort out the difficult customers.
What is the big deal here. Many of the guys you and others have offended here have helped putting checklists together to guide people through the process of selecting the honest contractor who will design and install a great system for a fair price. If that is not to your pleasing, put a conventional system in and move on.

Again, docjenser, geo is not an investment; it is an expense. You compare expenses for capital equipment by doing a life cycle cost analysis that includes higher depreciation, interest and maintenance costs of geo. If you want to appear being helpful you might try being less self serving.

Do a search and you can find some. They all show favorable comparison data

You're the professional. You're the one who benefits financially from promoting geo. If there is data, you do the search and show us.

Now, my interest is piqued as to what 'favorable' means.

toddm,
Not being a economist or having stayed at Holliday inn Express last night, could you expand on the comparisons above? I would like to see a comparison of the costs of each based on your criteria above. It may be helpfull for this thread. I will supply rough numbers for new installs in my kneck of the woods as well as loop numbers. If you supply the numbers for conventional equiptment we may have something to offer.

A bid for geothermal ducting and equipment here is 3,500.00 per ton based on 2 stage compressor+insulated ductwork
Looping here is done for 1,500.00 per ton of load based on 1 3/4x200' loop per ton including the circ pump and all piping inside and out
That brings the price of what I will call generic geo to 5,000.00 per ton for water to air

non generics that drive the price up include
insane zoning
hepa air filters/air purifiers
site obstacles/ house on pillings
water to water
overly complicated dshw
engineers for residential projects less than 8 tons

On the driling side non generic
deeper loops
larger diameter loops
site obstacles
thermal grout above 20% solids
engineers on residential projects less than 8 tons

Eric

Been there done that in the thread that once was a sticky here, using figures by Joe Ami. Geo isn't an investment because it wears out. Depreciation is an annual bookkeeing charge that recognizes the fact that much of the system will have to be replaced in 20 years. If the geo system is four times more expensive than a ASHP, then depreciation will be up to four times higher as well (adjusted for the longer life of the ground loop.) Similarly, interest expense would be four times higher. You are a better judge of extra maintenance expenses. Myself, I'd add a maintenance premium because the chances of having a geo nightmare seem much higher than buying a lemon ASHP.

I also linked to an ORNL study in the earlier thread that cited a chicken and egg problem with geo. Prices are high because sales are too infrequent to generate efficiency or competition, and sales are rare because prices are too high. I am guessing that delaware is the exception.

Toddm,
Thank you for the brain prompt.  I remember the breakdown.
The Delmarva Penninsula is a hot bed for geothermal, both commercial/public and residential.  After seeing the web quotes for areas of the country I have told more than a few pm'ers and e-mailers that if you move your project to the Delmarva Penninsula I would be glad to help you.
Eric

Posted By ICFHybrid on 28 Dec 2011 09:57 AM

Do a search and you can find some. They all show favorable comparison data

You're the professional. You're the one who benefits financially from promoting geo. If there is data, you do the search and show us.

Now, my interest is piqued as to what 'favorable' means.

http://files.eesi.org/Ellis_073108.pdf A good example for a commercial building are the Garrett Office Buildings in Oklahoma, and for residential buildings the Habitat for Humanity case studies. Both compared similar buildings equipped with geo vs. conventional, both are summarized in the above link.
You should not make all the offending comments here without having done your homework yourself.

Posted By toddm on 28 Dec 2011 09:03 AM
Again, docjenser, geo is not an investment; it is an expense. You compare expenses for capital equipment by doing a life cycle cost analysis that includes higher depreciation, interest and maintenance costs of geo. If you want to appear being helpful you might try being less self serving.

I am puzzled with your assumption that I was self serving. I was trying to give detailed explanations, with the goal for people to understand better why it is better to have a minimum quality standard.
Definition of Investment:
http://www.investorwords.com/1940/finance.html In finance, the purchase of a financial product or other item of value with an expectation of favorable future returns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment
"Finance investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain, that upon thorough analysis, has a high degree of security for the principal amount, as well as security of return, within an expected period of time."

Sounds pretty much like geo to me. Most people research geo here since they are willing to invest money upfront in return for future gain in form of lower operating costs compared to a conventional system.
A conventional system on the other hand is an expense, does not save you money or has any money return. It is a necessary expense to heat your house.

Anyone who does not understand that key principle why people are investing into geo ...for me lacks common sense.

I agree with others here. This thread, while somewhat well intended, has become ridiculous. This is my last post here.

A good example for a commercial building are the Garrett Office Buildings in Oklahoma, and for residential buildings the Habitat for Humanity case studies

We were talking about the maintenance costs of geo. I hope you don't think this industry Powerpoint created by Climate Master consists of "data" to that end.

You should not make all the offending comments here without having done your homework yourself.

I have no homework to do in this regard. As an industry representative it would be incumbent on you to provide whatever "favorable" data you have on the maintenance costs of geo.

And what, exactly, are "all the offending comments" I have made?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment
"Finance investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain, that upon thorough analysis, has a high degree of security for the principal amount, as well as security of return, within an expected period of time."

To be an investment, you must expect to get your original money back (principal amount) plus income and/or appreciation.

It is self serving to present geo as a special case when it is just another way to heat and cool your house, which has advantages, such as lower operating costs, and disadvantages, such as higher initial cost, higher interest expense, higher replacement costs and higher maintenance expenses.

When you are looking to get work done, you should always get 3 quotes. It keeps contractors honest. I am a contractor and i encourage my customers to check my pricing vs. my competition.

The biggest thing you need to ask yourself, what is it i am actually getting for the price?

When you see 3 quotes and you have 2 that are close in price, you have to ask yourself or better yet the "cheapest" quote, What are you giving me for that price.

The 'cheap quote' could  and most probably did miss something. next thing you know, he's coming back at you for more money or you are fighting with him to make it right. Which he probably cant afford to make it right, next thing you know your in court trying to get what you 'think' is owed to you and he ends up going bankrupt and now you need to call the more 'expensive' guy in to complete the system for you. Now where you at.

When you are looking to get work done, you should always get 3 quotes

Yes, you should, and I am sorry to report that right now, that number is more like five quotes than three. It's probably due to the difficult economy.
I can appreciate your sense of looking at the lowest quote with a jaundiced eye, but my best bids have almost all (if not ALL) been lowest this last year.

Posted By toddm on 29 Dec 2011 01:15 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedant

docj.....your 3 tons for 20-23 grand. What does that include?