I find that most outrages bids come from HVAC companies who are unfamiliar to geo

That certainly makes sense, but my experience was somewhat the opposite. The businesses who claimed to have lots of units out there were the most sophisticated in bid padding.

I found that companies who hadn't done many yet were more willing to try and keep the bid low in order to get more experience, more units out there, more word of mouth, whatever. In fact, they were some of the most helpful ones who wanted to show what their cost on the product was, estimate the number of labor hours for efficient utilization and work with you to figure out each phase of the job.

Maybe the more experianced contractors did not want to do business with you. Thus the high bids and padding you speak of. That would certainly explain alot of your experiances.
Eric

Posted By waterpirate on 04 Dec 2011 11:30 AM
Maybe the more experianced contractors did not want to do business with you. Thus the high bids and padding you speak of. That would certainly explain alot of your experiances.
Eric

I was thinking the same thing.  If a customer asked me to

"to show what my cost on the product was, and to  estimate the number of labor hours for efficient utilization"

I would double the price for the PITA factor.

I was thinking the same thing. If a customer asked me to

"to show what my cost on the product was, and to estimate the number of labor hours for efficient utilization"

The customer didn't ask them to do that. THEY wanted to do it.

Maybe the more experianced contractors did not want to do business with you.

The fact that they solicited my business in the first place and then completed bids would seem to speak against your theory, as would their followup calls to see if a decision had been made.

Posted By geodean on 03 Dec 2011 08:54 AM

Posted By robinnc on 02 Dec 2011 10:20 PM



I understand that there are bad apple contractors out there. It just seems over the last 4 yrs that so many people have come here with outrageous quotes. Alot of folks come to this forum to learn about geo and when all they see is these kinds of quotes, all it does is turn them off to geo.

rob,

what is your solution to this?   I always tell my employees "if you are going to  bring me a problem, bring me your solution!"

ALOT more competition!!!!!!!!!!!

You and joe said you had alot of competition and your prices reflect that. Just wish it was like that in every major city! Now that I have a base that the higher end SEER air to air is very close in price to a geo unit, the main extra expense of having geo is putting the pipe in the ground. As more and more geo units are installed, the price of the unit itself 'should' come down also.

Posted By robinnc on 04 Dec 2011 10:26 PM

Posted By geodean on 03 Dec 2011 08:54 AM

Posted By robinnc on 02 Dec 2011 10:20 PM



I understand that there are bad apple contractors out there. It just seems over the last 4 yrs that so many people have come here with outrageous quotes. Alot of folks come to this forum to learn about geo and when all they see is these kinds of quotes, all it does is turn them off to geo.

rob,

what is your solution to this?   I always tell my employees "if you are going to  bring me a problem, bring me your solution!"

ALOT more competition!!!!!!!!!!!

You and joe said you had alot of competition and your prices reflect that. Just wish it was like that in every major city! Now that I have a base that the higher end SEER air to air is very close in price to a geo unit, the main extra expense of having geo is putting the pipe in the ground. As more and more geo units are installed, the price of the unit itself 'should' come down also.

This is the true spirit of the tax incentive.  For all intent the geo units are not that much more expensive than conventional, in my area about 10%.  The tax incentive was designed to cover the looping. 
Eric

I wish the mods would sticky this thread. That way all newcomers would be able to read it and get a good idea on what it 'should' cost and not get ripped off.

Posted By robinnc on 30 Nov 2011 10:59 PM
<!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE AR-SA Below you will find one geo 4 ton compared to one air to air 4 ton.  I ‘think’ I’ve found a comparison between the two on prices for just the compressor and air handler. The air to air has a SEER of 17.5(rheem which is the only one I can find on the web to buy direct) and the geo has an EER of  27. Both have 2 stages and both have variable speed. This is the closest I can find with air to air. I can find several DIY for the geo but very hard to find one for the air to air to buy direct on the web. The geo is approx $6250 and the air to air is approx. $5250. So very little difference in actual costs, actually just 12% more for the geo unit! The duct cost is the same for both. Agreed so far.....
Add approx $600 for the desup for the geo  and approx $1000 extra for the extra plumbing and elec for the geo system Ok here is where we begin to part ways "extra plumbing" is DSH process pipe with buffer tank, insulation etc. electrical is 2- 3 230v circuits vs 1 and in some cases for us, a seperate service panel and meter can as well as additional permit fees for all, so my electrician charges me as much as $3,000 depending on the complexity of the job and a DSH buffer and piping are around $1,500.

For a 4 ton geo that would be approx. 3200’ of ground loop. Approx cost for the slinkies would be around $2500. Plus the digging for the trench,  the cost of flushing out the pipes, the pump itself, manifold . etc. Yes you can part this out if you like and do it yourself, but going rate is $1,650 a horiz. ton around here. so I would pay the loop contractor $6,600 installed. If I needed to go vertical that would double my loop price. So $6,600 + say $4,000 for DSH buffer and electricity + $6,250 for the unit (your number) = $16,850 before I start getting paid. Or $23,000ish if it is vertical before I started paying for over head and my time.......

Lets just say that it looks like geo units are approx. 15% higher than air to air units according to this. If this is not correct let me know.  Again here is the problem with the whole theme.....you are assigning arbitrary prices born of ignorance (which I mean literally, not as a barb), the additional plumbing and electrical permits required for geo may easily cost more than 1/2 the amount you assigned for all plumbing and electrical material and labor.

Paul, all of the expenses you mentioned with your company overhead would be the same for anyone in the HVAC business. That info is totally irrelevant for increasing the cost of geo(unless your company owns the backhoe).  Since you install geo, what would you charge to install a 4 ton geo system(with desuper)(ductwork is already in place and meets what is required for geo) with horizontal slinkies(plenty of room, the ground is flat)? Overhead is not irrelevant nor is geography if you are going to take a bid from we don't even know where and say "geo costs sooooooo much". Context is the single most important thing when making comparisons.

http://ingramswaterandair.com/bryant-geothermal-heat-pump-system-p-17057.html

 

http://www.acdirect.com/rheem_heat_pump_.php

 

Again, It looks like geo units are approx. 15% higher than air to air. So the only additional costs are the desuper and putting the pipe in the ground. That’s NOT that much more if the pipe is put in horizontal !!!!! Again if by not that much more you mean $10,000 then I can agree.

Geodean and joe…..your quotes you said were in the low 20 grand range. What tonnage was that? 3-4

I know labor rates vary all over the place in different areas of the country but the parts don't! I know this will increase the cost of the system but not THAT much overall. NOT 10 of thousands more! Let's not forget the extra parts come with extra labor, different skilled trades and different permits. Further lets also agree that your allowance for these things was woefully inadequate. So yes the difference can easily be 5 figures.

 I still don’t see why folks on here are getting astronomical quotes!!!!!!!!!!! Again we need context. You have asserted a point: geo is sooo expensive- Is it possible that a few cases of high pricing have jumped out at you and without context you assume gouging. Is it possible that you are short changing job costs and the 10-15 times as many man hours it takes to install geo vs ashps.
It's not that I mind anyone who asks the question, It's that it bugs me when someone states something as a fait accomplis and then fails to support it. 

 

You later mentioned or implied that I suggested competition in my area has impacted my pricing. I'm not sure where you got that.
I charge what I need to, to do a job regardless of competitor pricing. I rarely change my quoted prices without changing the scope of the work.
Yes if a customer looks like they are going to require more of my attention (whether asking for cost breakdowns or 15 bids etc) there is a PITA tax.
The only reason my prices are 10-15% higher than a few years ago, is because my cost of doing the work is higher.
Most of the folks who charge less than me have been in the geo business for less than 2 years.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 03 Dec 2011 01:16 AM

Get another contractor/bidder.

I contacted more than a dozen and had half that many actually come up with something.

Hmmmm.....Half a dozen replied so that's six and several were 5 figures higher than the others........so "several is what? 2 or 3?

Hmmmm.....Half a dozen replied so that's six ?

Let me explain this to you, Joe. When I saw what was happening with the HVAC quotes on my build, I put out a lot of requests for bids using a number of different places I own and different "homeowners" - old, young, rich, poor, smart, ignorant. I might have 40 all told, out of many more contacts.

so "several is what? 2 or 3?

We've been here before. How many does there have to be before you can easily admit that gouging occurs?

I'm still not convinced that the original poster was claiming high geo costs are all due to price gouging.

The question of why does it cost so much, comes because a lot of people have noticed, either by direct experience or observation, that geo does cost more than the methods of heating and cooling which have been more prevalent up to now. Joe.ami you have sort of proven that to be true, and at the same time very coherently explained why that is, breaking down extra elec/plumbing costs, well-digging, et cetera. Now I know why geo costs sooooooo much.

Still don't know why tempers had to flare. A better understanding of what is involved is what average homeowners need, not just a blanket, "you should trust me." Because they've heard that line before, and it turned out not to be true. The upshot is that I can't afford to front all that money for geo, and it would take a long long long time for the system to pay itself off.

It's a given most geo systems cost more than equivalent fossil fuel systems
In new construction, the difference is less than in a retrofit because you're trading out one type of equipment for another (duh)
When compared against oil or propane in new construction, a geo system will recoup the additional installation costs in about four years
A four ton DX system (new construction) up to and including the heat pump with a domestic hot water system costs in the upper $20's before tax credit
That system with all ducting and air handler is in the upper $40's - low $30's after the tax credit.
The equivalent fossil fuel system is in the low $20's. Difference ten to twelvethousand.
No Brainer in new construction against oil or propane
A more difficult sell against natural gas.
All the the natural gas companies care about is getting everyone hooked up to the natural gas teat (pardon me).
We're gratified every time we commission a system.

"...A four ton DX system (new construction) up to and including the heat pump with a domestic hot water system costs in the upper $20's before tax credit
That system with all ducting and air handler is in the upper $40's - low $30's after the tax credit..."

Ok so using your example 4 tons is going to cost me somewhere between 35k and 45k for geo (turnkey so to speak) in new construction. But I just paid 9k total for an ASHP system (incl ducting, air handler, etc) in new construction (3.5 tons). It would take a lot more than 4 years to recoup the 26k to 36k dollar difference in cost. Maybe geo just doesn't make sense in my climate.

I've been following this for a while now and can't help but notice there are a lot of assumptions being made without any real data So from a home owner's point of view, here's my 1 data point I can contribute. The 3 ton system with horizontal ground loop we just put in this fall was 24k before tax credit...16.8k after. This is a retrofit of a forced air oil heating system in a 1840's vintage farm house (with many upgrades, tho). It included new trunks and new duct runs, as well as more registers as needed. Also included a desuperheater with aux storage tank to supplement my electric water heater, and an automatic humidifier which my wife really wanted and will rarely, if ever, be needed in our area. My area is the southern tier of central NY state.

Installer was one of 2 that we got quotes from. Both were essentially the same price, but the other installer quoted a 4 ton system attached to our existing duct work with essentially no upgrades to the leaky, ancient ducting. The guy we went with ran the numbers for both a 3 and 4 ton system and showed me where the 3 ton was the better choice, especially if I did some of the air sealing recommended by our energy auditor (which I did myself). His quote also had a breakdown of all the various parts of the system and associated cost, which I liked.

I never looked into an ASHP as we're cold enough here that I personally think geo makes more sense, though I know the ASHP's are not the same animal they were 20 years ago.

We heated primarily with wood for a lot of years, and other than the work involved and the temp fluctuations in the house, it was a great,, cheap way for me to heat. I'd still be heating with wood but an injury forced my hand in looking at other choices sooner than I planned. The only other choice was to throw my money away on oil fuel, or do a switch over to propane, which made no sense either. Pellets also required lifting and lugging bags each day. Geo really was a no-brainer, even with it's price tag as it will have a 7 year (or less) payback over oil for us.

So I don't really see it as "costing sooo much". Sure, I could wait for prices to come down (if they ever do...and what does, these days?) but by the time everyone figures that geo is the way to go, and there's lots of competition out there, my system will have paid for itself. So my recommendation to any home owners reading this thread is do your homework, get a couple of estimates, see what the REAL price is in your situation, and then decide if it makes sense for you depending on what your choices are. Don't assume that geo is overpriced for what it is.

And the result, so far, is that the geo system made around a 300kwh impact on our electric usage for the month of Nov (about $35 here). It was a warmer Nov than usual, but based on the # of heating degree days for the month, this was less than I would expected based on the design estimation for our usage. The house stays within a degree of the set point, and there's a degree or less variability from room to room. So far, it's working better than I expected. Maybe after following this thread I'll have to tell my installer that he overcharged me

Thanks for sharing your experience. Real data instead of assumptions. Way to go!!!

Posted By sesmith on 07 Dec 2011 01:33 PM
I've been following this for a while now and can't help but notice there are a lot of assumptions being made without any real data So from a home owner's point of view, here's my 1 data point I can contribute. The 3 ton system with horizontal ground loop we just put in this fall was 24k before tax credit...16.8k after. This is a retrofit of a forced air oil heating system in a 1840's vintage farm house (with many upgrades, tho). It included new trunks and new duct runs, as well as more registers as needed. Also included a desuperheater with aux storage tank to supplement my electric water heater, and an automatic humidifier which my wife really wanted and will rarely, if ever, be needed in our area. My area is the southern tier of central NY state.

Installer was one of 2 that we got quotes from. Both were essentially the same price, but the other installer quoted a 4 ton system attached to our existing duct work with essentially no upgrades to the leaky, ancient ducting. The guy we went with ran the numbers for both a 3 and 4 ton system and showed me where the 3 ton was the better choice, especially if I did some of the air sealing recommended by our energy auditor (which I did myself). His quote also had a breakdown of all the various parts of the system and associated cost, which I liked.

I never looked into an ASHP as we're cold enough here that I personally think geo makes more sense, though I know the ASHP's are not the same animal they were 20 years ago.

We heated primarily with wood for a lot of years, and other than the work involved and the temp fluctuations in the house, it was a great,, cheap way for me to heat. I'd still be heating with wood but an injury forced my hand in looking at other choices sooner than I planned. The only other choice was to throw my money away on oil fuel, or do a switch over to propane, which made no sense either. Pellets also required lifting and lugging bags each day. Geo really was a no-brainer, even with it's price tag as it will have a 7 year (or less) payback over oil for us.

So I don't really see it as "costing sooo much". Sure, I could wait for prices to come down (if they ever do...and what does, these days?) but by the time everyone figures that geo is the way to go, and there's lots of competition out there, my system will have paid for itself. So my recommendation to any home owners reading this thread is do your homework, get a couple of estimates, see what the REAL price is in your situation, and then decide if it makes sense for you depending on what your choices are. Don't assume that geo is overpriced for what it is.

And the result, so far, is that the geo system made around a 300kwh impact on our electric usage for the month of Nov (about $35 here). It was a warmer Nov than usual, but based on the # of heating degree days for the month, this was less than I would expected based on the design estimation for our usage. The house stays within a degree of the set point, and there's a degree or less variability from room to room. So far, it's working better than I expected. Maybe after following this thread I'll have to tell my installer that he overcharged me

 
What you had done and the price you paid are very reasonable. I very rarely see that on this web site for geo. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw one quoted or installed in this price range.
There is a guy on here on his last post said he had gotten 'several' quotes that ranged from 40-49 GRAND for a 2400sf house and that didn't include putting the pipe in the ground. This is what I'm harping about and what I've seen over and over on here the last 4 1/2 yrs!!!!!!!!!!

Joe you enlightened on some of the exp that I was overlooking for geo but ya lost me when you said it takes 10-15 times MORE labor to install over a ASHP......where do you come up with that figure?? Also, that 3 grand you said you have to pay for the elect install seems very high. That work can't take the elect guy more than 2 days at most! The last spec house I built was 3900sf and it only cost me just at 9 grand and that was with 2-200amp boxes!

I wish more folks would post their experences like sesmith did!

Jelly, the context you are missing with Pauls numbers is geography. He is in NY an NJ etc. where costs are much higher. He also is quoting DX which frankly is more expensive to purchase than water source. 4 ton in a new build around here with lots of features would be about $25,000 (just did one), a comparable high end furnace and AC would be about $14,000. Pay back just a few years. A builders special furnace and air new build could be had for about $10k.
The only thing that raises ire in me is unsubstantiated assertions. I think Rob's concern is genuine, but I think conclusions are being drawn in the abscence of any scientific process and I simply ask that it be applied. This would create a truly tangible resource for a shopper.

Rob. Again the electric work in many cases here requires a live tap (added meter can) a seperate service panel, possibly 3 230 volt circuits etc. Yeah it is a couple days work, + materials, permits and then profit for the electrician.
Curiously the plumber and loop contractor hope to profit as well and try to charge accordingly.
RE 10 to 15 times more labor, speaking in terms of retrofits if AC exists in home currently........an ASHP takes 2 guys a half day (1 man day). A geo heat pump takes (depending on job requirements) tin knocker installer and helper, 1 day (2 man days), sheet metal fab 4 hours, plumber and helper 1 day (2 man days) , electrician and helper 1 day (2 man days), Heavy equipment operator 1 day, loop installer and helper 1-2 days (call it 3 man days), that's at least 10.5 man days. Are we to mend the lawn, thats much more time and could drag us back next year.
There is so much more to deliver, there is so much more to install, there a 2 to 3 inspectors to be met instead of one........ understand?

This is again my beef with the costs so much assertion (which again has little anecdotal support) folks ignore the volume of bodies involved and even fuel......... delivery of a 30,000 pound excavator (and retrieval) costs $300 by itself (and a 1/2 a man day), but folks act like it can magically arrive with out consuming fuel or someone's time.

Frankly a ground source heat pump is a large volume of work for a very reasonable price, and again my margin % wise is greater on an ASHP or a furnace.........Why is geo sooooooooo cheap?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 06 Dec 2011 12:14 PM

Hmmmm.....Half a dozen replied so that's six ?

Let me explain this to you, Joe. When I saw what was happening with the HVAC quotes on my build, I put out a lot of requests for bids using a number of different places I own and different "homeowners" - old, young, rich, poor, smart, ignorant. I might have 40 all told, out of many more contacts.

so "several is what? 2 or 3?

We've been here before. How many does there have to be before you can easily admit that gouging occurs?

Finally a quantity is offered. Any reason for the reluctance?

Are there 40 different geo contractors in your area or did you continue to solicit bids from the ones you already identified as gougers?
That'd be strange wouldn't it?
In fact wouldn't you only solicit bids from the ones you presumed honest after the first couple projects? Shouldn't that make a sample of 40 have several more fair priced quotes than gougers?
 
Haven't I already agreed gouging exists? repeatedly? Regardless of industry.

You can continue to take issue with me if you like; or you can support your case i.e. "different jobs were bid require these different things, here is the example of fair pricing, here is the example of gouging."

Assertions without support allow any with an axe to grind to attack a product, person or position. Some who see these assertions enough times begin to accept them as true.

If you see yourself as the champion of the uneducated shopper, then educate with real numbers.

Any reason for the reluctance?

What reluctance?

Are there 40 different geo contractors in your area

There might be. Distance seemed to deter very few contractors. What appeared to be happening is that they wanted to secure the job, take the fat and pass off the real work to local subs.

did you continue to solicit bids from the ones you already identified as gougers?

Well, there was some interest in seeing how far they would go. ;-)

then educate with real numbers.

Isn't that what I've done? Not only have I commented on a number of posters who have suspected that their quote was too high, but I even talked about some of my own. And, I'm not the only one who has pointed out that entire geothermal systems could be bought and delivered to your home for $7,500 or even less.

Is there some reason, with all your experience, that you don't offer what might be fair in certain circumstances?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 08 Dec 2011 10:21 AM

I'm not the only one who has pointed out that entire geothermal systems could be bought and delivered to your home for $7,500 or even less.

Is there some reason, with all your experience, that you don't offer what might be fair in certain circumstances?

You can buy a brand new car for $2.500, I just don't see many driving around.
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-06/lifestyle/30480468_1_ratan-tata-tata-nano-cheapest-new-car
Our pricing for 4 ton CM tranquility 27 (2 stage) with a 10/5 year lparts/abour warranty, DSH, horizontal loops, 2 tanks for the DHW, and electric wiring and ductwork adoption (new return boot etc) and electrical hookup is between $24-25K (without ductwork). A 3 ton s usually $3K less, a 5 ton is $3K more.
At the end of the year, our business makes a small overall 4-7% business, which I believe we are entitled to.
If your house needs special attention, prices can change significantly. It is not my fault, it is your house, you own it.
If you want expensive extras for your comfort (radiant etc), it is also not my fault, it is your desire to get more. If you are buying a mercedes, it will cost you more than a chevy. You could whine all day long that you paid twice as much for the mercedes, but there is a reason for it, and it is not that they are gouging you.
It is no secret that the geothermal are much more expensive to install and are much more complex, since they deliver thermal energy to your home without burning anything.
I proudly say that we do not have any unhappy customers, and if there is an issue we will not stop until it is resolved to their satisfaction. That is what you pay for, and that is different from the $7500 geosystem shipped to your house. Good luck with that. I would like to even lower my overhead, but honestly, a consumer like you who gets an unreasonable amount of estimates is one of the reasons why overhead costs are higher than they should be. Your effort does not seem to be to get a good,reputable contractor at the right price, but to "pay back" those guys who gave you high price quotes. Get over it.