Kinda like saying my post is the funniest thing you read cuz obviously I don't know what I am doing? That kind of jumping to conclusions, eh, eugenep?

A big snafu is framing that's so out of true the mason goes to the GC and tells him he can't make the brick veneer fit around the windows. The builder's possible answers are 'Yes, we need to start over" or "Do the best you can." I heard this story and similar ones from subs who were thrilled to hear me say I wanted quality first and foremost.

No one has brought up the 800 pound gorillas here. Make sure your banker and your insurance agent are on board before striking off on your own. Historically, banks are very reluctant to lend to owner builders, and it's rare to find an insurance company willing to write builders risk for more than a year. I bult this house for cash so banks weren't a problem. (Make double sure you have the funds to finish because you won't get financing in midstream.) Back when I needed financing, and had been to a rodeo, I paid a builder a flat fee to front for me, schedule subs (so they'll show up) and review the project once a week. The bottom line is that if you are very committed and you find your builder is only sorta committed, you will step up.

As a caveat, the stories I heard from subs date from the late great boom when many, many crappy houses got built. One hopes that today's builders are the product of survival of the fittest.

Posted By toddm on 17 Oct 2013 03:26 PM
Kinda like saying my post is the funniest thing you read cuz obviously I don't know what I am doing? That kind of jumping to conclusions, eh, eugenep?

A big snafu is framing that's so out of true the mason goes to the GC and tells him he can't make the brick veneer fit around the windows. The builder's possible answers are 'Yes, we need to start over" or "Do the best you can." I heard this story and similar ones from subs who were thrilled to hear me say I wanted quality first and foremost.

No one has brought up the 800 pound gorillas here. Make sure your banker and your insurance agent are on board before striking off on your own. Historically, banks are very reluctant to lend to owner builders, and it's rare to find an insurance company willing to write builders risk for more than a year. I bult this house for cash so banks weren't a problem. (Make double sure you have the funds to finish because you won't get financing in midstream.) Back when I needed financing, and had been to a rodeo, I paid a builder a flat fee to front for me, schedule subs (so they'll show up) and review the project once a week. The bottom line is that if you are very committed and you find your builder is only sorta committed, you will step up.

As a caveat, the stories I heard from subs date from the late great boom when many, many crappy houses got built. One hopes that today's builders are the product of survival of the fittest.

I never said you don't know what you are doing.  I said that there are people on this forum who have built only a couple of homes are telling others that have built many homes how the industry works.  I have had friends who were their own GC, and they have a home that they like.  I don't think they can honestly say how most of the building industry works.  They know how it worked for them, but that doesn't mean they have a good overall feel of the entire industry.

Your above statement with the framing tells me that this GC is an example of a bad GC and a bad framer.  So, do you expect a owner/builder to check the plumbness of everything while the framer is working?  Even if you tell a framer that you expect quality to be job one, that doesn't mean you will get a quality product.  I feel in this case, a good GC will be more of an asset than a liability.  I can't be expected know what is considered good work on every single trade.  Do you inspect every single weld on the plumbing, every nail on the plumbing, etc?  I can't do that.  I think I can detect truly bad work, but subtle things, I am not sure I would spot those things, and I don't have the time to learn every single trade that will be building my house.  I am relying on my GC to do those things.  I expect him to hire good competent workers.  I interviewed many builders, and I visited many of their homes, and based on that research, I am trusting that my GC will do a good job.  If I don't trust him, and I feel compelled to check everything he is doing and micro managing him, then there really is no point in hiring him in the first place.  It is just like the subs.  Do you plan on micro managing them?  Making sure they use certain tools, certain building techniques, make sure they are up to snuff on the latest building codes, and then follow them around all day while they do their work.  I can't do that. I have another full time job.  I have small children.  I have other things that I need to get done.  I am paying someone for their skill and experience.

Those subs built those crappy homes.  The GC might not be managing them correctly, but it is the subs who build the homes.  The builder I chose let me visit homes that have been completed, and homes that were under construction.   Some homes were stick built and some homes were ICF homes.  I looked at the fit and finish, the cleanliness of the jobsite, the organization of subs and materials, I talked with the current owners of the properties to get an understanding of how it was to work with the GC and their subs, etc.  Maybe, the GC sucks, but if the research that I did on him was not enough, how can I be expected to interview each and every sub to the same level of detail.  Most subs don't have a portfolio of their work, and it isn't easy to see their work after it is completed.  Which homeowner knows the subcontractor and will allow the sub to use their house as an example of their work.  Not many.  However, homeowners know their GC, and if they have a good relationship with their GC, they will allow the GC to show prospective home owners the quality of their work.  That is what a couple of homeowners did for us.  One couple has lived in their house for a couple of years, and so they were a good source of information about the GC and the quality of his work.

I don't plan to go on my own.  I made the financial decision to hire a GC.  I realized that I don't have the time and expertise to do a better job than the person that I hired.  The things that I have taken onto my plate are researching materials and finishes.    another reason that I chose my GC is because he  has experience with Amdeck and ICF construction.  I chose my own doors, windows, cabinets, faucets, flooring, appliances.

Based on your comments, I feel that you have mostly seen bad GC's.  It seems as though you think a good GC is like a unicorn.  I feel that with due diligence and good research, a good GC can be found.

A lot of this is "area dependent" as some areas are very limited in quality GC's. In such areas the quality GC charges a very hefty premium for their services, usually 30% of the cost of the home. On a $300k build, that adds another $90k to the cost, bringing the cost of the home to $390k. I am talking real profit numbers here, not what the GC puts on paper but what he actually brings in. This includes the mark-up on parts, supplies, etc, that can be "lost" or hidden within the paperwork.

This is very common practice in the hotel industry. Management companies will mark-up FF&E and other hotel supplies but the mark-up (usually 30%-50%, sometimes higher) is never on paper as they create their own invoice and send it to the hotel ownership group for payment. The management company sees huge profits from selling these items. Now steps in the GC of the project and they add another 15% labor costs for the install.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying all GC's do this but in my experience in what I have observed personally, this is how the ones I came across operated.

Posted By Lbear on 17 Oct 2013 05:10 PM
A lot of this is "area dependent" as some areas are very limited in quality GC's. In such areas the quality GC charges a very hefty premium for their services, usually 30% of the cost of the home. On a $300k build, that adds another $90k to the cost, bringing the cost of the home to $390k. I am talking real profit numbers here, not what the GC puts on paper but what he actually brings in. This includes the mark-up on parts, supplies, etc, that can be "lost" or hidden within the paperwork.

This is very common practice in the hotel industry. Management companies will mark-up FF&E and other hotel supplies but the mark-up (usually 30%-50%, sometimes higher) is never on paper as they create their own invoice and send it to the hotel ownership group for payment. The management company sees huge profits from selling these items. Now steps in the GC of the project and they add another 15% labor costs for the install.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying all GC's do this but in my experience in what I have observed personally, this is how the ones I came across operated.

If you believe that any good GC in your area is making 30% or more, why would you even consider one?  Why did you pose the question?  Based on your other posts, you are not planning to pay anyone 30%, so you have no option, but to do it yourself.  I am not sure what you wanted to get from this thread.

I will give you my experience, not that it matters.

My GC gave me a bid.  I calculated the costs based on getting bids from usually 3 subcontractors.  I didn't include every trade needed, because I didn't think about some tasks until after I made the decision to hire a GC.  I priced out the amdeck, amvic ICF, plumbing, radiant heating, roofing, framing, trusses.  I made some conservative estimates about electrical, drywall, painting, stucco, but probably on the low side for the bay area.  The GC bid is ~15% higher than my calculated cost.  Of course, he might be making more because he gets better pricing than me, but that isn't relevant to me.  I can only get the price that I can get.  Also, he is possibly making less, because I probably didn't include a bunch of things that need to get done.  For me, that is a reasonable tradeoff.

For example, a simple thing that I didn't consider is the large amount of dirt removal because my finish floor height is so low.  I have had ~200 yds removed just for my crawl space and footings.  In northern california, dirt removal is very expensive.   That was more than 20 truck loads.  I was planning to build a basement, and I got quotes from more than 3 contractors, and just by my quick calculation, it was going to be over $100,000 just to remove the dirt of just the area of the house, not including the osha requirements and the over dig and the expansion of the dirt once it is not so compacted.  I put nothing in my estimate, but it will probably take $5,000 - $10,000 to remove the dirt and keep the rest under plastic.

Another thing, I didn't fully understand the size of my footings, so I did a quick calculation of the area of my footings, calculated the amount of concrete that I needed, and doubled it for labor and rebar.  After watching the guys working on the rebar and the dowels, I am sure that I way undercalculated it.  They have been doing rebar for over 1 week.  It is way more rebar and concrete than my friends stick built house.  Also, another house around the corner they framed up the footings and rebar in only a couple of days, because the foundation footings were that much smaller.  The house footprint is very similar, but it is stick built, and mine is ICF with suspended concrete floors, so I guess my structural engineer wanted some substantial footings.  Also, my ICF walls go up to nearly 14 ft in some sections and 12 ft in quite a few areas, and 10ft every where else. I have some footings that are 6' wide and 26" deep.  they have 2 levels of rebar on them.  I have over 500 linear ft of footings with nothing less then 30" wide and 12" deep.

Anyway, if you think they are robbing you, then it doesn't make any difference if it is a nightmare or not.  Just to help you, every time I go to the house, my GC is not there.  With your thinking, I should be very upset that he is never there.  Unfortunately, I don't know when he is there and when he isn't, because I can't sit on the worksite all day.  I go for 5 minutes, take some photos, drop off some food and drinks for the workers, and go to work.

Even the best tradesmen screw up, as Click and Click will admit between cackles. It's also human nature to consider letting it slide if there is there a chance of getting away with it. The bigger the mistake the less likely you are to hear about it. I'd ask your friends who have built houses to walk through with you occasionally just to make sure your GC is paying attention. And your GC is responsible rather than the subs. You're paying him for quality control. If you don't think he did a satisfactory job, and he disagrees, ask the bank to intercede. Obviously, in-house lenders won't be as responsive as an independent bank.

I do most of my own work. I screw up right along myself, but after invoking dieties, I tear it apart and start over. When I needed craftsmen, I hired moonlighters and acted as their helper. On major materials purchases, I bought it, placed it, and in the case of my heat pump, hired a pro to hook it up. The result is that very little happens in this house without me standing right there.

No, not many people have the time or the incllination to do it my way. Evenso, on my previous builds, I was on the jobsite every day and did as much as I could. I can assure you that no one will caulk and seal as diligently as you.

And you are also right that my advice is not the same as the pros. I;m not selling anything.

The question I posed was clear. I did NOT ask if hiring a GC was worth it. Go back and read my OP. I asked:

Just curious if anyone here was their own GC during the home build? How difficult is it and has anyone regretted being their own GC during a home build?

My question was about the difficulty of being a GC and if the home builder regretted being their own GC.


One can also hire a project manager who can help oversee the build and help with getting subs but without the increased costs of a GC. I can buy my own supplies (granite, kitchen cabinets, tile, fixtures, etc) from my business contacts and suppliers.

Lbear, I would say the answer to your question largely depends on how much experience you have acquired in the construction business, how much effort you can devote to being a GC, and how much time you have to actually complete the project. Lack of experience can be traded for research and additional time. If you have the time and if you don't make any critical mistakes, you can save significant $$$. If you also accomplish some of the sub work yourself too (e.g., electrical, plumbing, wall board, flooring interior finish details, etc), you can save significantly more $$$. When the construction business is down, you will find many subs that will be willing to do your bidding at very competitive rates. When the construction business is up, you will be more challenged as the better subs will tend to work with the better GCs as others have indicated.

Getting a GC license is often a trivial process in some states. In other states (like the states we operate, OR & WA), you need to pass a licensing exam, have a couple $M liability insurance policy, and be surety bonded. Getting your contractor license will allow you to write more legally enforceable sub-contracts in those states that provide this protection. The real problem with being a GC is that you may find that you like more than your existing day job and this could be a life changing experience!

In Pa, owner builders don't need licenses if they stay in the home for three years. That's fairly standard around the country.

But even if you know what you're doing, you need three people on board: your lender, an insurance agent and the building inspector, Many building inspectors are leery of DIY, in part because the code is pretty daunting and in part because they don't want to be on the phone with you every other day. If I had built my house three years earlier, under my BI's hardnosed predecessor, I would have been in a world of hurt.

Architects offer project management. Dunno where I'd find one around here. Building is still slow enough that I know I could negotiate a fee-based consulting arrangement, or hire a builder with the understanding that I am in charge of buying materials.

Getting your contractor license will allow you to write more legally enforceable sub-contracts in those states that provide this protection

I'm a little lost on that concept. I don't need a GC license in WA to build my own house and I guarantee you the contracts I write are enforceable. Probably more so because I have some experience in this area.

The real problem with being a GC is that you may find that you like more than your existing day job and this could be a life changing experience!

It's possible, but nearly EVERY GC I have talked to in the last couple years has voluntarily expressed their desire to do something, anything else. About half of the subs say similar.

Many building inspectors are leery of DIY, in part because the code is pretty daunting and in part because they don't want to be on the phone with you every other day

This is another reason I found a Construction Manager(CM) very useful. Most things I can figure out, but if I have a question, or want to make sure of something, the CM is the place to go. I can't imagine a building inspector wanting to hold an Owner-Builder's hand all through the process. Here, the inspectors simply show up to make sure code is enforced, presumably for safety and to ensure that the next buyer of the home doesn't get a Frankenstein. Having a paid person on hand to help with questions, even if it is just to let you know what is standard practice in the industry was worth it, I felt.

Posted By Lbear on 17 Oct 2013 08:33 PM

The question I posed was clear. I did NOT ask if hiring a GC was worth it. Go back and read my OP. I asked:

Just curious if anyone here was their own GC during the home build? How difficult is it and has anyone regretted being their own GC during a home build?

My question was about the difficulty of being a GC and if the home builder regretted being their own GC.


One can also hire a project manager who can help oversee the build and help with getting subs but without the increased costs of a GC. I can buy my own supplies (granite, kitchen cabinets, tile, fixtures, etc) from my business contacts and suppliers.

your topic is "Being your own GC - Nightmare or Worth it?", I think most people would assume that you are valuing being your own GC or hiring one in some similar capacity.  When you say worth it, doesn't that imply it is comparing to something?  So, my position still stands.  If you think that others will charge an arm and a leg, then of course, it is much more worthwhile to do it yourself no matter the amount of headache.  If you are like me, and you think they aren't stealing from you, then the level of worth it and the difficulty that I am willing to tolerate drops down quite a bit.  Originally, when I first got quotes, some GC's were charging more than 30% based on my calculated numbers, and then I seriously considered being my own GC, but when the number dropped to 15%, it wasn't "worth" it to me.

In my town, you aren't allowed to do work yourself if you are using permits, and I am doing new construction, so permits are necessary.  Every sub must be listed and they must be licensed.  So at most I could be is an owner/builder.  I would need to get all of the liability insurance, possibly some kind of workers comp (I didn't look into the details because I decided to hire the GC), and there was a bunch of other things that the building commission quickly mentioned when I asked about being an owner/builder.  Insurance alone is probably at least $1,000 based on my umbrella policy.  So, no day laborers, no pay as you go kind of workers.  All of the subcontractors I contacted quoted me a price for a particular job, not some hourly worksite rate.

Anyway, it seems as though everyone has different experiences.  My friends that were their own GC don't live near me.  They were high school friends.  I don't know anyone that was their own GC.  People in the bay area like to hire handy men that are unlicensed for remodeling jobs with no permits, and I have had friends who have done that, but I don't think that is very comparable.  I am building a high end home using high end materials, and I don't want some warm body at home depot to do it for me.

Just by using ICF, a bunch of GC's took themselves out of the running.  When I wanted to do Amdeck, even more dropped out.  In the end, only serious high quality GC's were even willing to tackle ICF and Amdeck, so that made it much easier, and then I just interviewed them and checked out their previous homes, and we came to a mutually agreeable solution.

The BI's role is part public safety and part consumer protection. My BI, a good guy, told me he didn't care if I marked the depth of insulation in the attic or not because it was unlikely that the builder (me) was out to snooker the owner (also me.)

Posted By toddm on 17 Oct 2013 11:13 PM
In Pa, owner builders don't need licenses if they stay in the home for three years. That's fairly standard around the country.

But even if you know what you're doing, you need three people on board: your lender, an insurance agent and the building inspector, Many building inspectors are leery of DIY, in part because the code is pretty daunting and in part because they don't want to be on the phone with you every other day. If I had built my house three years earlier, under my BI's hardnosed predecessor, I would have been in a world of hurt.

Architects offer project management. Dunno where I'd find one around here. Building is still slow enough that I know I could negotiate a fee-based consulting arrangement, or hire a builder with the understanding that I am in charge of buying materials.

Toddm,

In this post contrary to your other posts, you are pushing people towards hiring a GC.   We have some harsh rules in California and each town also has their own interpretation of things.  It is hard to keep up with every code if you aren't doing it for a living.  It took me 5 months to get my building permits, because of all of the different rules and regulations which were not clearly specified, but needed to be followed. 

One example is materials.  There are no specific materials which are not allowed or specified for a roofing material.  I was rejected for 2 different materials, aluminum shingles and certainteed presidential tl shingles.  Additionally, I was not allowed to use aluminum for my trellis.  I was not allowed to use foam headers for my stone ledge.  I was not allowed to use river rock as my veneer.  However, in all of the documentation from the city, none of this is specified. 

A GC has to understand the code and make sure it will pass inspection.  That takes quite a bit of knowledge and experience.  How will I get that experience?

How will I get that experience?

Read the code? Isn't that how everyone does it?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 18 Oct 2013 11:45 PM

How will I get that experience?

Read the code? Isn't that how everyone does it?

Reading something is not experience.   Why do you always answer questions in a condescending manner?  Many people read and read and read, but it doesn't mean they can do something.  In the same post that you are quoting, I mentioned that I followed all of the listed requirements for my town, but it still didn't pass planning check.  If you can't offer anything of value, can you just keep it to yourself?


ex·pe·ri·ence [ik-speer-ee-uhns] Show IPA noun, verb, ex·pe·ri·enced, ex·pe·ri·enc·ing. noun 1. a particular instance of personally encountering or undergoing something: My encounter with the bear in the woods was a frightening experience. 2. the process or fact of personally observing, encountering, or undergoing something: business experience. 3. the observing, encountering, or undergoing of things generally as they occur in the course of time: to learn from experience; the range of human experience. 4. knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone: a man of experience. 5. Philosophy . the totality of the cognitions given by perception; all that is perceived, understood, and remembered.


No where does it mention reading.  Please, if you want to be an ass, at least be accurate.

Wow- I can't imagine building in your town! Here in SC, it took me 5 minutes to get my permit. Fill out the form, write a small check, and you're done.

I guess I'm sort of a hybrid GC on my build. Since I'm doing most of the work myself, obviously I'm the GC, but my ICF guy did my excavation, all of the concrete, and provided a lot of support while I was stacking my ICF. Technically, he's a sub, but he has hired crews for roofing and other work; I guess they would be sub-subs? I consider myself very fortunate to have found a builder who would let me do all of my own work, yet be willing to step in for those jobs that were too big for one old man. Since we're building in a community that is new to us, I don't know how I would have gone about finding reliable subs. Judging from some of the work I've seen done around here, it's very much a crap shoot, and you'd have to be all over the subs if you wanted things done right. Inspection has been rather lax so far, so I wouldn't count on them to catch mistakes or short-cuts.

For me, it would either be a DIY build, or write a large check for a turn-key. We simply don't have the money for a turn-key build, so the path was obvious.

No where does it mention reading.

So, let me get this straight. Your position is that reading the building code is of no EXPERIENTIAL value to someone who wants to build their home for the first time?

so I wouldn't count on them to catch mistakes or short-cuts.

You're right; they don't catch them. But, to be fair, BI's seem to be in some sort of a difficult position. If they've never seen the type of construction you're asking them to inspect, how are they going to pull it off? In my case, there probably aren't but a handful of homes built in the county that uses these technologies, and probably ZERO homes that use a combination of them. Realistically, they either come and say "Wow, this is impressive; I hope you know what you're doing", or they start acting authoritative and splitting the little hairs they (think) they can identify. Owner-Builders motivation to do it right nearly always trumps the GC. I've visited enough building sites to see the difference in thoroughness between Owner builders and GC's.

Posted By jdebree on 19 Oct 2013 07:43 AM
Wow- I can't imagine building in your town! Here in SC, it took me 5 minutes to get my permit. Fill out the form, write a small check, and you're done.

Sigh, i wish it was like that in Chicago! Must be nice...

Posted By ICFHybrid on 17 Oct 2013 11:16 PM

Getting your contractor license will allow you to write more legally enforceable sub-contracts in those states that provide this protection

I'm a little lost on that concept. I don't need a GC license in WA to build my own house and I guarantee you the contracts I write are enforceable. Probably more so because I have some experience in this area.

The real problem with being a GC is that you may find that you like more than your existing day job and this could be a life changing experience!

It's possible, but nearly EVERY GC I have talked to in the last couple years has voluntarily expressed their desire to do something, anything else. About half of the subs say similar.

True, you don't need a GC license to build your own house in ANY state. You don't need a license to accomplish any construction aspect of your own house in ANY state provided you get the proper permits and pass inspection, which can be very easy or very difficult given the specifics. However, in most states you can't legally sell a house that was built or remodeled without licensed contractors for some period of years. Furthermore, many buyers will want to know who built the house before buying it, especially if it is a high end house. Most localities have GCs who are well known for doing quality construction projects and some home builders and buyers seek them out. So some buyers may not be as comfortable buying a house that was built or remodeled by unlicensed and unknown people.

True, anyone can write a legally binding contract and can try to use litigation to enforce it. However, licensed contractors in states that have contract construction boards can have their contracts easily enforced by the contract construction board without the need for any litigation. Litigation can be expensive and can often take a long time to accomplish, which can adversely affect the building schedule.

True, in recent years given the construction industry crash, many contractors likely wish that they had other options. Contractors that didn't manage their business properly (e.g., became greedy during the bloom period prior to the crash and perhaps over-extend their finances) went out of business quite fast during the down turn. It is not uncommon for contractors to be fairly well versed in managing construction projects, but lack competence in managing their own business and lives.