We get it. You don't have the time or inclination to be an owner builder. I do. Lots of people here have gone DIY all or in part. This website is meant for people who don't want same old same old, so experience tends to be in short supply. Where I live, if want exotic you're on your own.

Posted By toddm on 20 Oct 2013 06:51 PM
We get it. You don't have the time or inclination to be an owner builder. I do. Lots of people here have gone DIY all or in part. This website is meant for people who don't want same old same old, so experience tends to be in short supply. Where I live, if want exotic you're on your own.

In the bay area, my home is still different, but I still managed to find a GC that is competent.  I am doing Amvic ICF walls.  I am using Amdeck for the floors.  I am using radiant heating.  I am using a boiler and an indirect hot water heater for DHW.  I am using Italian tilt/turn windows.  I am using an Italian folding door system.  I learned about many of these things on this forum.  I still managed to find someone who can do the work.

I don't know what you consider exotic, but compared to many homes built in the surrounding towns, my home will be exotic.  Even though the homes were using expensive passive certified windows, most of them were still standard stick built homes.  Only one of the ones my window vendor showed used something different, and they used SIPs. 

The general consensus is that most GC's are not knowledgeable in alternative/green technologies. So when confronted with a project that requests such building methods, the GC is learning on your project. They will also charge you a premium for their learning curve and the end results will vary.

Those few GC's that are knowledgeable on alternative green technologies will charge you a premium to build such a home because they know they are a rare breed.

That leaves a homeowner in a precarious position. What to do? That is why being one's own GC is the only alternative if they want an energy efficient custom home that doesn't cost a fortune.

Bear - its obvious you are just trying to convince yourself that you should be your own GC. Alright, just go for it.

You ask advice but have no interest in listening to it.

Do yourself a favour. Price the thing out and make sure you don't miss small things like mirrors and shower doors. Get written quotes from every trade and supplier. If you worked with a designer to do the plans, ask him/her if your list of expenditures is complete. If you price the whole thing and its less money then the GC then it simple isn't it?

But where you get the idea that its a general consensus is beyond me. Any GC use to doing custom homes has a brand new set of spec every job he takes on. Wether its greener or fancier really doesn't matter. If the plans are drawn up correctly, he will just keep searching till he finds suppliers and trades that can meet those spec's. Maybe you are use to dealing with John Boy and his pickup but there are lots of very professional GC in every area of N.A. that can build anything that can be design. No they would be your standard track builder that makes his money on volume. It will be the guy who builds two or three quality homes a year.

Gimme a break FBBP. It is called economies of scale. Your fifth ICF house goes up one-third faster than thefirst. Your 185th ICF house takes half as long and has far fewer mistakes. My ICF stem wall was the first use of it in my town. And if my AAC house isn't the only one in Pa, you can count the others on one hand. The list goes on. I linked a while back to an ORNL study that flat said electric utilities were the best and perhaps only prospect to get economies of scale in drilling geo wells. The difference in prices in geo between Indiana, where it is common, and other states where it is not can be 40 percent.

There are many gradations of DIY, from hiring a construction manager to paying a flat fee for consulting to being owner builder. The difference is general liability. The GC assumes responsibility for delivering a house of acceptable quality. Any lesser arrangement means assigning blame first (materials or workmanship?) Trouble is, mistakes in homebuilding are often cast in concrete and very, very expensive to fix. The best advice is don't go ICF (geo, SIPs, solar pv) if those markets aren't competitive where you live.

Plan B is become your expert, at which point, the GC, if not expendable, brings much less to the table.

Posted By toddm on 22 Oct 2013 08:41 AM
Gimme a break FBBP. It is called economies of scale. Your fifth ICF house goes up one-third faster than thefirst. Your 185th ICF house takes half as long and has far fewer mistakes. My ICF stem wall was the first use of it in my town. And if my AAC house isn't the only one in Pa, you can count the others on one hand. The list goes on. I linked a while back to an ORNL study that flat said electric utilities were the best and perhaps only prospect to get economies of scale in drilling geo wells. The difference in prices in geo between Indiana, where it is common, and other states where it is not can be 40 percent.

There are many gradations of DIY, from hiring a construction manager to paying a flat fee for consulting to being owner builder. The difference is general liability. The GC assumes responsibility for delivering a house of acceptable quality. Any lesser arrangement means assigning blame first (materials or workmanship?) Trouble is, mistakes in homebuilding are often cast in concrete and very, very expensive to fix. The best advice is don't go ICF (geo, SIPs, solar pv) if those markets aren't competitive where you live.

Plan B is become your expert, at which point, the GC, if not expendable, brings much less to the table.

so, you admit that the 1st house is not as good as the 10th house, but if I did it myself, it would be my first house.  why is it faster and done with fewer mistakes on the 185th house?  i think i stated it earlier, it is experience.  how can i get any experience on my one house.  why wouldn't it better to find a competent GC, and in my case, the price was only 15% higher than my quotes for the major subs, and estimations of the minor subs.  My GC has built many ICF homes and has done radiant, solar, Amdeck, etc.  I guess if there aren't any GC's in your area that can do those things, then there is a high probability that there isn't any subs either.  Maybe in your area, the subs mostly work with owner/builder, but i am guessing that it is more common for subs to work with GCs.  So, if you are drying to have the work done by a local sub, more likely than not, there will be a local GC with that experience.

D*mn you are dense eugenepan. I wrote that the first one can't be built FAST. As the old saying goes, you can build it quickly; you buiild it inexpensively; you can build it well. Choose two of the three.

But I am happy that you live in the heart of green country. And thanks for your posts. If Lbear decides to build in the Bay area instead of rural Ariz, he'll be all set.

Posted By FBBP on 22 Oct 2013 01:23 AM
Bear - its obvious you are just trying to convince yourself that you should be your own GC. Alright, just go for it.

You ask advice but have no interest in listening to it.

I work with GC's on a daily basis in my line of work. The GC's themselves tell me when they are candid that a project like mine would cost 30% higher if they did the GC on it. They are open about it and admit how they make their money. So a $400k build becomes a $520k build as they would walk away with $120k profit on the job. I have no problem with people making money, that's what makes the world turn, but spending 30% more on a project is something I don't want to do.

In addition, like the GC stated himself, the end result will not be better than a DIY because it's all about time and cutting expenses when and where possible. He also said he is not about "building green" but about building fast and going above code or using green techniques is something they DON'T do because there is no profit in going above code. He said it himself, "only fools go above code" as that is throwing money into the wind.

I just had a sub leave a project and he was telling me how the GC keeps rushing him to finish the framing work. He said it's about speed, not quality.

Not all GC's are that way but depending on the area, that is all you might have available. So the only alternative is to be your own GC or don't build and just buy a cookie cutter home already built.

I made up my mind at the first post, I clearly stated that the only options are to be your own GC and build a custom home OR not to build at all. Two options, not three. Hiring a GC is not an option in my area, plain and simple.

Mega builders who have built hundreds or thousands of homes does NOT equal better quality homes. The opposite is true. The more they build, the quality keeps going down. Quantity does not equal quality.

I see what GC's do when they build numerous homes. They sit in their office and delegate to the poor minion they have running around the field trying to check on each job site. They run the guy ragged while he cannot spend more than an hour per job site trying to keep things moving.

They will NEVER turn down a job even when they are booked to the gills. They just cut back on supervision and QC to get the project done.

Posted By toddm on 22 Oct 2013 03:10 PM
D*mn you are dense eugenepan. I wrote that the first one can't be built FAST. As the old saying goes, you can build it quickly; you buiild it inexpensively; you can build it well. Choose two of the three.

But I am happy that you live in the heart of green country. And thanks for your posts. If Lbear decides to build in the Bay area instead of rural Ariz, he'll be all set.

Do you read your own posts, or do you just like to criticize people? You said the 185th will be done faster and have fewer mistakes.  Most logical people would assume that based on the quote about the 185th house, then it would be done even slower and with more more mistakes as you approach the 1st house.  Maybe, I am dense, but I would assume that a house with fewer mistakes is better than one without them.  I guess you like a house with many mistakes in it.  I would like to have my house built with as few mistakes as possible.

If you truly knew anything about the area, you would realize that people don't build green houses here, but it is nice to widely speculate.  I am assuming that is what you meant by the heart of green country.  I would say greater than 50%, and probably closer to 90% of the homes being built use builder grade windows.  Just so you aren't kept in the dark about the why of these things, lots are very expensive, e.g. a half acre lot in the middle of town with no views just sold for $2.5 million, building a home is very expensive, cuts have to be made, and more people in this area would rather have a subzero refrigerator than better windows.  People would rather control their lights and thermostat from their iphones than talk about insulation or efficiency.  My friend is building a 4,000 sq ft for $1million, and that is with builder grade windows.  He is already stressed to the max as it is.  That $1 million does not include the lot.  He is using standard stick built techniques.  He is using standard HVAC.  He is using regular fiberglass insulation.  He is using a standard grade of hard wood floors.  He is using an okay cabinet.  Where he is spending a little money is his tile averages $12/sq ft. I have gotten framing quotes for $200k.  One guy who wanted to just do my interior walls, and the roof trusses, wanted $90k just for labor.

Many older windows are single pane windows.  Many homes do not have a/c.  Some older homes have no insulation in them, and people live in them for years with  no problems.  Why would that person care about being green when he goes to build a new home.  Anything built with the new code will be orders of magnitude more comfortable with lower utility bills.

I seriously doubt it, but you can assume that if you want.  If he is thinking that being an owner/builder in rural Arizona is potentially a nightmare, it would be orders of magnitude worse here.  Every quote that I see on this forum has no relationship to what is being quoted here.  Currently, the market is hot, so many of the good subs are only working with GC's. 

Posted By Lbear on 09 Oct 2013 05:24 AM
Just curious if anyone here was their own GC during the home build?

How difficult is it and has anyone regretted being their own GC during a home build?

In your initial post, where does it clearly say that you are being your own GC or not building it at all.  You said "during the home build", so most people read it as you are building a home, and the options are hiring a GC or someone in a similar capacity, or do it yourself.

Gotta believe I read better than you, Eugenep. As I wrote a couple days ago: "I do most of my own work. I screw up right along myself, but after invoking dieties, I tear it apart and start over." Time is a luxury GCs don't have. Even better, I don't argue with myself about whether actually is a mistake or whether it matters. I just start over.

I'm not sure why you are trying to tell me I can't build a house when I'm sitting in a very nice one I built myself. I'm not challenging your manhood because you say you can't. Your intelligence maybe, based on your inane posts, but not your manhood.

Posted By toddm on 22 Oct 2013 08:41 AM
Gimme a break FBBP. It is called economies of scale. Your fifth ICF house goes up one-third faster than thefirst. Your 185th ICF house takes half as long and has far fewer mistakes. My ICF stem wall was the first use of it in my town. And if my AAC house isn't the only one in Pa, you can count the others on one hand. The list goes on. I linked a while back to an ORNL study that flat said electric utilities were the best and perhaps only prospect to get economies of scale in drilling geo wells. The difference in prices in geo between Indiana, where it is common, and other states where it is not can be 40 percent.

There are many gradations of DIY, from hiring a construction manager to paying a flat fee for consulting to being owner builder. The difference is general liability. The GC assumes responsibility for delivering a house of acceptable quality. Any lesser arrangement means assigning blame first (materials or workmanship?) Trouble is, mistakes in homebuilding are often cast in concrete and very, very expensive to fix. The best advice is don't go ICF (geo, SIPs, solar pv) if those markets aren't competitive where you live.

Plan B is become your expert, at which point, the GC, if not expendable, brings much less to the table.

Its interesting how some diy people thing everything is somehow special, one of a kind or never heard of before. A gc sees incremental changes in technologies every year. If you think about it, the construction industry didn't come to a halt while we where switching from copper to plastic just so that the plumbers could get up to speed. There was not a slow down when we switched from dimensional lumber to I joists or rafters to trusses. When a plan calls for radiant heat instead of forced air or straight stairs to circular, you don't rule out a certain bunch of GC and decide you have to build it yourself. Good GC's know how to find the info they need to handle what the plan calls for. In a few cases, yes there is a learning curve but in most cases the trades just adopt new technology on the run. There is a much greater chance that a GC will be able to accurately explain to the different trades how the new product will effect them and thereby creating a fair costing then there is of a home owner explaining this to the trades.

Because you are not familiar with the industry, you think that your one of a kind AAC house is something special. A good GC would just look at the plan, call up his mason and say - Hey, got a client that wants to use ACC instead of cinder block. What impact will that have? After discussing it and doing their due diligence which might include calling the supplier or manufacturer, they will work out a number that is based on cost of production and get on with the job. If memory serves, that is all you did at the end of the day. Hire a man use to laying cmu's. The same with stucco. Any trade that is use to working with cmu will not have a huge transition to ACC.

My first ICF job, about twenty years ago, was a full basement with an attached three car garage. Yes, it took me longer then the hours my supplier said it should take an experienced crew, a whole hour and one half longer. My crew had never done ICF before, but they where experienced carpenters and cribbers with a health respect for the powers of wet concrete.

When I priced the job, I knew I had to compete with an insulated cip basement, so no, I did not get to charge for that extra hour and one half learning curve, I priced it at production costs.The client is now a close personal friend and wishes he had done the whole house. Oh and by the way, there was no mistakes to correct.

When you don't know the industry, don't assume you know how it works. If you reread this thread, you will see that the experienced trades and GC's contradict just about everything the DIYs claim. That's the difference between reading about something and actually experiencing it.

Posted By toddm on 22 Oct 2013 08:32 PM
Gotta believe I read better than you, Eugenep. As I wrote a couple days ago: "I do most of my own work. I screw up right along myself, but after invoking dieties, I tear it apart and start over." Time is a luxury GCs don't have. Even better, I don't argue with myself about whether actually is a mistake or whether it matters. I just start over.

I'm not sure why you are trying to tell me I can't build a house when I'm sitting in a very nice one I built myself. I'm not challenging your manhood because you say you can't. Your intelligence maybe, based on your inane posts, but not your manhood.

your reading comprehension is suspect at best, maybe you fix your problems, maybe you don't.  my originally statement is that I don't have the time to do it, and you just keep confirming it.  you say you make a mistake and then you fix it, but how do you know if you have even made a mistake, how do you fix those.

time is not a luxury many homeowners have either.  many people live in tract homes, and they are totally happy with that.  probably means they either don't have the time and/or money to build custom.

I have never said that you can't build a house.  Maybe you are not so confident in your home, and you thing people are questioning your skill set.  I have never done that.  I said that I don't have the time to do it myself, because it is very expensive to build here, and i have kids and a job that requires my attention.  just going to my build site from my work is 30 minutes.  I don't have the time to go there multiple times per day to check on the work of the subs.

then you admit that you need the experience of building a home to make fewer mistakes.  i don't have that luxury.  i have said that from the very beginning.  please go back and reread my posts.

my original post that has your panties in a wad seems to be that i don't think an owner/builder knows the industry.  i still stand by that.  how can someone who builds a couple of homes, talked to a few subs in each field have an idea how the whole industry works.  i guess you are more of a genius that i will ever be.

Yep, I see that all the time in this area. [email protected] thread has reallllly taken off. I saw this thread last wk and was going to post my experience.

Couldn't get a masonry contractor to bid on it even for time and materials. The mason who moonlighted it with me was a foreman otherwise and looking for challenges. He wouldn't have taken it if I'd asked him to read up on it and take the lead.

Eugenepan: Not much of a stretch.

I can see this topic has become very heated. I respect the GC's that honor their trade and who are using newer green techniques and materials. I respect the GC's who don't lie and who don't try to gouge the customer and cut corners. Sadly, at least in my area, those type of GC's are far and few between. 

Some of the GC's here are taking this discussion personally. I hope you understand I am not questioning your business model or quality of work. I am speaking in generalities and not targeting anyone here.

All the GC's I have to talked to in my area are of the mindset that building green is stupid and a waste of time and money. They are of the mindset that, "houses have to breathe, so we build them leaky." When they hear "custom home" they see dollar signs and go to town on the home owner.

The walls of the home will be ICF and I will use a well-seasoned and very respectable ICF contractor. The rest of the project I will manage myself and oversee myself with the help of a project manager who I have known for some time.

THE major obstacle to green is the reluctance of the building industry to try something new. It's smart business. A successful builder knows how to finish on time with a good result. In an unforgiving market, why give up that safety to try something new? A corrollary: If you are the only builder in the market doing something distinctive, why give it away? There is one builder in my part of the world who uses ICF to come up with a very nice house. I can't afford him. You see that result over and over in the ICF forum. Priced it/out of reach.

All of which brings me to DIY. The guy who asks how can I get the house I want anyway is your ally. Put on your missionary hat and help him. If that means subbing walls only, then sub the walls. Some of the time, maybe in most of the time, it means talking him down to the house he can afford to have someone build. But that won't be every case. The sad fact is that if I'd listened to the pros on this site, I wouldn't be sitting in a nice house I built myself. And that isn't smart business.

Todd - I would agree with most of what your last post says excepting that it is important to realize that the building industry doesn't try something new very quickly for good reason. The client base has not yet been educated. If there was a huge demand for all things green, this forum would have 5 million members and we won't be able to have enlightening discussions like this (;-)

Put on your missionary hat •••• many new products are introduce at cost or below to get the product out there so there can be some savings for early adopters. People need to understand that when you talk about GC, don't include the track builders! They business model will not allow the type of thing we talk about here. That said, most areas have lots of good GC that will work with the client just as you say. Many of us will do shell only or let the client pick what they want. If my client is an excavator, why would I hire someone else to dig his basement? If the client thinks they have the skill set to do some of the work, we sit down to make sure they understand what that work involves. We usually assign it a value so that should something go wrong or if when we get to that point and the client doesn't have time, we can carry on with the job without renegotiating.

I have no problem with diy. I have done jobs were all I do is design the project and then coach the client through it. My problem is when diy's feel they can save 30% doing it them selves. Its not going to happen. If you are retired, have the time and inclination as well as a decent skill set, you can save money. If you have a family live that involves kids, if you have a real job that demands time, you will probably not save any money. 95% of the time, diy can't buy at the same value as the pros. DIY's with a real job are going to run up a huge gas bill running around unless they happen to live and work right next to the project. In your case, you probably paid more then needed for somethings but you offset that with your time, which you don't count as money at the time. Sure that time become money in the value of the house but if you add up your time and assign a dollar to it and add it to the cost you incurred, would it be less then if you had some build the house?

That said, you have a home you are happy with and you didn't pay taxes on your time!

"The general consensus is that most GC's are not knowledgeable in alternative/green technologies. So when confronted with a project that requests such building methods, the GC is learning on your project. They will also charge you a premium for their learning curve and the end results will vary. "

So true. So TRUE!!! I am basically explaining things to the contractors. They have no clue and want to do things the way their father or grandfather did things. It must be frustrating being a company that sells new technology because you will have to one-by-one educate these guys to learn on the job to use new products. If you don't they will never look at it on their own.

"My problem is when diy's feel they can save 30% doing it them selves. Its not going to happen. If you are retired, have the time and inclination as well as a decent skill set, you can save money. If you have a family live that involves kids, if you have a real job that demands time, you will probably not save any money"

Disagree. For me anyway. I DIY all kinds of stuff and it is usually quite a bit less and better quality work. But between me and my family, we have pretty much every tool from previous work, etc and know how to use them. So my cost is material. If I have to buy a tool or two, i'd still rather do that so I can help a neighbor one day than pay some dude who cares less. I don't ever want construction industry strangers in my home when I'm not around. And if I'm going to be there, I might as well do the work myself.

My GC bids for my home are between $80k to $140k more than my individual bids for subs, etc. Why would I pay someone $100k extra to be a middle man? It wasn't a big deal to line up good subcontractors and get bids. I live 6 blocks from my land so even with a job and a kid I can be there every AM, every PM and all weekend. I can walk there in 12 minutes LOL. These subs are gonna get watched good.