"you can't legally sell a house that was built or remodeled without licensed contractors for some period of years."

this, as well as licensing, varies by state. No such requirements in many states.

Some states, counties and/or cities have large bureaucracies when it comes to home building. California sounds like a complete nightmare, both in codes and permitting and in general governmental functions. The northern part of the state should split from the southern part but that is a topic and discussion for another day.

I would never want to build in a state or county that had such ridiculous codes. The cost, fees, headaches and stupidity of it all would make me want to just leave the state and move elsewhere. The area I am in does not have such restrictions which makes everything a lot easier.

HOA's can also be a PIA to deal with. I made sure the area I bought land in didn't have crazy HOA restrictions because they can be as bad or worse than county restrictions.

That is partly why building costs vary so much in regions. One can build two exact homes in two different areas but the one home will cost $150 sqft and the other will be $80 sqft.

Posted By Bob I on 19 Oct 2013 02:22 PM
"you can't legally sell a house that was built or remodeled without licensed contractors for some period of years."

this, as well as licensing, varies by state. No such requirements in many states.

True, "in most states you can't legally sell a house that was built or remodeled without licensed contractors for some period of years." So we should look to the other minority of states with minimal construction licensing/building regulations to find the best practices and the best designers/builders?

I agree Lbear, southern California is a nightmare. So are most areas that have a high population density and often excessive regulation. However, some regulation is required to protect public safety. Excessive regulation tends to go hand-in-hand with excessive local government policies and excessive political agendas. Northern California and southern Oregon have been wanting to secede and create the new state of Jefferson for quite some time.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Oct 2013 09:11 AM

No where does it mention reading.

So, let me get this straight. Your position is that reading the building code is of no EXPERIENTIAL value to someone who wants to build their home for the first time?

Yes, the definition of experience is not reading.  reading the code gives you knowledge, but it doesn't give you experience.  I can't tell if you are being intentionally obstinate or not.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Oct 2013 09:20 AM

so I wouldn't count on them to catch mistakes or short-cuts.

You're right; they don't catch them. But, to be fair, BI's seem to be in some sort of a difficult position. If they've never seen the type of construction you're asking them to inspect, how are they going to pull it off? In my case, there probably aren't but a handful of homes built in the county that uses these technologies, and probably ZERO homes that use a combination of them. Realistically, they either come and say "Wow, this is impressive; I hope you know what you're doing", or they start acting authoritative and splitting the little hairs they (think) they can identify. Owner-Builders motivation to do it right nearly always trumps the GC. I've visited enough building sites to see the difference in thoroughness between Owner builders and GC's.

So, a BI is paid to know the building code, and you don't expect them to know all of it, even though it is a requirement of their job.  However, you expect someone who is building a single house with a full time job doing something else to be intimately aware of all details of the building code.  You expect someone who shouldn't know the code to know it, and you expect who should know it doesn't.  You are truly a strange individual.

I think most owner/builders are doing it because they are trying to save money, not because they "want to do it the right way".  You are most likely in the minority.  Even the OP talks about the financial tradeoffs, no mention of the GC thoroughness versus their own.  My friends who were owner/builders also did it because they were saving the 20% which in the end they did not.

"So we should look to the other minority of states with minimal construction licensing/building regulations to find the best practices and the best designers/builders?" Sharks are everywhere and in any field, such as with Arthur Andersen, one of the largest and most respected CPA firms in the US until the genius's at Enron guided them to fast profits.
In my state which has minimal licensing as well as many high end lakefront towns with no building inspectors, there are good builders and sharks. The sharks can offer better deals and many of the high rollers like the odds, so they flourish; the rest flourish due to honestly, diligence and hard work.

I assume any intelligent person building their own house will know enough of the building code to understand what passes and what doesn't. And one cannot rely on the subs; I've had numerous subcontractors who did not know stair or railing details for instance, and there are lots of details and it changes regularly.

Yes, the definition of experience is not reading. reading the code gives you knowledge, but it doesn't give you experience

I get an awful lot of value out of reading. Apparently, more than many people can garner from experience. Therefore, I don't place as much value on experience as you seem to.

I'm not that unique, Eugene. There are other owner-builders like me who don't really want a GC because they are trying to get a good product. I know someone who built a $1.5 million home for $2.7 million using a GC. It costs $2000/month to heat. We were trying to avoid that.

the rest flourish due to honestly, diligence and hard work.

Exactly. I found that the subs who intended to get to work and work an 8-hour day were generally going to make their money on working and diligence. Many subs want to show up at 9:00 or 9:30 and be done by 3:00 or 3:30. How do you think THEY intend to make their money?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Oct 2013 06:24 PM

Yes, the definition of experience is not reading. reading the code gives you knowledge, but it doesn't give you experience

I get an awful lot of value out of reading. Apparently, more than many people can garner from experience. Therefore, I don't place as much value on experience as you seem to.

I'm not that unique, Eugene. There are other owner-builders like me who don't really want a GC because they are trying to get a good product. I know someone who built a $1.5 million home for $2.7 million using a GC. It costs $2000/month to heat. We were trying to avoid that.

again, you said read the code for experience.  you can't read something to get experience.  i didn't say that experience is the end all.  i said that i don't have the knowledge or the experience to build a home.  i questioned how i would get the experience, and you said read the code, which is not correct by definition.

maybe you are a genius, but obviously, many people don't understand the code, or these forums wouldn't exist to answer people's questions.  most people on this forum are asking questions which are clearly specified in the code, so why don't you just tell them to read the code.

maybe your friend hired an idiot, maybe your friend is an idiot.  how do you know that it could be built for $1.5 million?  it is just hearsay.  unless you build the house for $1.5 million, then it is all just speculation.  are you saying the GC made $1.2 million in profit, or that he built it in a totally inefficient manner.  how did your friend get taken?  Now, you are saying that you just to have some high level of knowledge about the cost of building a home, and not any of the details, and yet your friend got taken.  It makes even less sense that your friend could've built it for any cheaper, because then every subcontractor would've rooked him.  Why didn't your friend get the GC to detail the cost of the different aspects of the home.  He could've taken that sheet to you, and you could've told him it was bogus.  Now you are just shooting in the wind after the fact.  You have no idea what each thing cost or what he charged or anything.

You have no idea what each thing cost or what he charged or anything.

Heh, Heh. I know the value of everything, but I only saw the house after it was finished. I would have told him if he had asked. He did ask for a price and was given an "estimate", but there were cost "overruns" and the work sort of just dragged out. There was a great amount of T&M and the GC took a cut on all of that, of course.

Some of his subs were eager to do my work, so I collected bids, but it wasn't too much of a surprise that they were ludicrously high.

Why are you so abusive? You don't know anything about my background. Is there something about this topic that makes you anxious or upset?

GCs don't guarantee a home build is done the right way. Sometimes the opposite is true. They know how to bend the rules and they know how to cut corners but still pass inspections.

Major nationwide & smaller local home building companies hire GC's that know how to cut costs (materials & labor) but still pass inspection. They want the fastest and most inexpensive build possible. Every OSB sheet, every piece of lumber is accounted for, and if they can save $100 by removing OSB from the home, they will. If they can frame out a window with only two 2x4's instead of making it stronger by using three, they will. If they can stick the cheapest vinyl windows possible in the house, they will.

Most owner/builders become their own GC because they are trying to do it the right way.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Oct 2013 09:08 PM

Why are you so abusive? You don't know anything about my background. Is there something about this topic that makes you anxious or upset?

That is his Modus Operandi, he does that on all topics that he disagree with. Myself and others here have experienced his abusive posts, here is just a sample:

Posted By eugenep on 28 Aug 2013 02:04 PM

asshole

crap

shut your trap

Your gristle

Get a life you loser

go crawl under a rock

your drivel

Posted By Lbear on 19 Oct 2013 09:16 PM

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Oct 2013 09:08 PM

Why are you so abusive? You don't know anything about my background. Is there something about this topic that makes you anxious or upset?

That is his Modus Operandi, he does that on all topics that he disagree with. Myself and others here have experienced his abusive posts, here is just a sample:

Posted By eugenep on 28 Aug 2013 02:04 PM

asshole

crap

shut your trap

Your gristle

Get a life you loser

go crawl under a rock

your drivel

can you just stop doing that?  on every one of your posts on this thread, I have provided full answers.  now, you wonder why I get upset.  again, you said you weren't going to respond, and then you respond with this stuff.  please stop.

your buddy ICFHybrid, says "read the code", that is condescending and worthless.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Oct 2013 09:08 PM

You have no idea what each thing cost or what he charged or anything.

Heh, Heh. I know the value of everything, but I only saw the house after it was finished. I would have told him if he had asked. He did ask for a price and was given an "estimate", but there were cost "overruns" and the work sort of just dragged out. There was a great amount of T&M and the GC took a cut on all of that, of course.

Some of his subs were eager to do my work, so I collected bids, but it wasn't too much of a surprise that they were ludicrously high.

Why are you so abusive? You don't know anything about my background. Is there something about this topic that makes you anxious or upset?

what do you mean by abusive.  you answered a post with a condescending statement "read the code", that's how you get experience.  I provided you with webster's definition of experience, and you don't seem to like that fact that you don't know the meaning of a word which is very common and often used in the english language.  if you can't decipher a single word definition, why should it be plain and simple to understand the thousands of pages of building code.

you criticize people for not understanding the code by just reading it, but then you let a person whose sole job is to understand the code to slide.  you can't seem to fathom that there might be a decent GC out there.  Everyone has horror stories, but that doesn't mean that every body is incompetent. 

You made condescending and rude remarks to me, and I called you on it. 

I am not anxious or upset.  I haven't criticized your background.  The fact is you don't know what things cost on the house.  You admitted yourself, that you only knew things after the fact.  I stated the same thing.  When a homeowner changes things all of the time, they need to pay the penalty.  Why is that unreasonable?  Why should a builder take it on the chin?

Posted By Lbear on 19 Oct 2013 09:14 PM
GCs don't guarantee a home build is done the right way. Sometimes the opposite is true. They know how to bend the rules and they know how to cut corners but still pass inspections.

Major nationwide & smaller local home building companies hire GC's that know how to cut costs (materials & labor) but still pass inspection. They want the fastest and most inexpensive build possible. Every OSB sheet, every piece of lumber is accounted for, and if they can save $100 by removing OSB from the home, they will. If they can frame out a window with only two 2x4's instead of making it stronger by using three, they will. If they can stick the cheapest vinyl windows possible in the house, they will.

Most owner/builders become their own GC because they are trying to do it the right way.

If you believe that you will be a better GC than an experienced GC, and you think they are ripping you off by charging you a 30% or more upcharge, why did you ask the question?  What could anyone do to change your mind?  It is like most things when you post.  You are just looking for confirmation, and you don't like it whenever disagrees with you.  Why even make a post with a question?

I would love to see your home when you are done.  I hope you are as consistent with your building as you are with your posts.

what do you mean by abusive

you don't seem to like that fact that you don't know the meaning of a word which is very common and often used in the english language

That's what I mean by abusive. LBear supplied a number of other examples. You can keep trying to "prove" that I don't know the meaning of a simple English word, but I think you will just keep looking as foolish as when you started.

A lot of your angst seems to revolve around building code and it isn't that big of a deal, even to the owner-builder. In my case, I had an architect whose job it is to design to local code. She put a large number of common specifications on the first page so the reviewing code officials could easily see them. A home designer will do the same thing and even off the shelf blueprint companies offer local code customization services. When the engineer does his part, he adds more detail and specs. Once it is submitted, the code officials are free to ask questions about anything they aren't comfortable with and you can work out the differences before approval. Even owner-builders who want to do everything themselves have been successful by reading the code and working through issues with the BI's, and many of them have to begin with a thorough reading of code. There are books you can buy and even cheatsheets that distill important features down to a few pages. All of that requires some reading, but essentially no experience.

I liked having a CM because you get access to their pertinent experience without having someone who wants to do an up charge on every material or subcontractor that enters the place. We heard from several posters in this thread who mentioned that, but it's worth passing on what I heard from across the aisle in the Home Materials Depot in the last year or so. It's an older general contractor talking to his young protege. "See this here? This is your friend. It's only costs what, $11 dollars, but you can charge the homeowner $150 for each one and he will never say "boo" about it." Obviously, that's the kind of thing which sours homeowners on GC's.

Having the CM just helps confirm that what you are doing is normal and customary. I doubt very much I asked the CM a half dozen code questions and even then, it was because he was onsite, we were working together and I was too lazy to go look it up at the time.

Good heavens, the code isn't nuclear physics. You do your research in bites, reading the code, and if need be the books explaining it and/or online discussions. Framing first. Then on to windows, stairs, insulation, deck railings. A lot of it is interpretation, so you go to the BI with intelligent questions, such as 'do you accept California corners?' Or 'On a spiral case, do you want the treads trimmed on the inside to minimum width or can I run them right up to the pole?' People are people, but I think my BI was impressed that I wanted better and went after it. Most GCs learn to build a house that will pass code and then keep building it. I am not sure why eugenep thinks experience is important. A good builder would reach for the book before ordering my spiral staircase. A bad one would blunder ahead.

Many banks will not lend to owner-builders, for good reason.
Their money is at risk and at the end of the job they expect the finished product to be done in compliance with the codes, the plans and in a good workmanlike manner.
Depending on the owner-builder, they never know if that is what they will get.

Posted By toddm on 20 Oct 2013 10:01 AM
Good heavens, the code isn't nuclear physics. You do your research in bites, reading the code, and if need be the books explaining it and/or online discussions. Framing first. Then on to windows, stairs, insulation, deck railings. A lot of it is interpretation, so you go to the BI with intelligent questions, such as 'do you accept California corners?' Or 'On a spiral case, do you want the treads trimmed on the inside to minimum width or can I run them right up to the pole?' People are people, but I think my BI was impressed that I wanted better and went after it. Most GCs learn to build a house that will pass code and then keep building it. I am not sure why eugenep thinks experience is important. A good builder would reach for the book before ordering my spiral staircase. A bad one would blunder ahead.

what is the purpose of this forum? Many of the questions that are posted here are specified in the code, so based on your statement, this forum is totally unnecessary.  some people don't have the time to build  their own house.  i would presume that more houses are built with GCs then with owner/builder, so it is more common that people either don't have the desire, time, whatever to build their own homes.  Why would a spec home builder include expensive unique items that might or might not sell, and it won't increase the builder's profit.  It makes no sense.

On the other hand, I see many custom home builders working with clients specifying and suggesting all kinds of unique items based on input from the client.  I don't know where you live, but where I live, I don't see many homeowners being owner/builders.  We don't have time to research every item, because some of us have kids, full time jobs, etc.  maybe you don't lose much money if you wait 1 month to research some items while you are building, but it is quite a bit money for me.

Now you are saying that it is interpretation of the code, which implies that it isn't that clear.  Maybe you are retired and have idle time on your hands to talk with your building inspector.  In my town, if you miss an inspector appointment, they charge you.  The demolition building inspector made 4 hour windows to inspect my property, and he came outside those windows 2 times, and then he wanted to charge me for another demolition permit because my demo guy wasn't there when he finally showed up.  I don't know how "easy" it would be to talk with the building inspector.  Maybe you live in a town where they are sitting at the coffee shop chatting with the locals, but we can barely schedule an inspection.

With my second round of building documents, we just did everything they asked us to do.  We didn't fight anything, and they still took 4 weeks to approve our documents.  Based on my "experience", I really can't be the GC, I can't sit around my building site for hours waiting for the inspector to show up.  Based on my "experience", I would know how to pass planning check easier, because now I know what they desire for materials. 

Maybe your BI is easily impressed, but where I live, they are inspecting homes that cost 10's of millions of dollars, so my little home, no matter how "impressive" won't impress anyone.  I might be the cheapest single family new home construction in the whole city.  I doubt they will impressed by anything.  I have seen visited homes with my window vendor where just the window and door package cost more than 50% of my entire house.