These subs are gonna get watched good.

Watching and seeing is only the beginning. The challenge is what happens afterwards.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 23 Oct 2013 12:41 PM

These subs are gonna get watched good.

Watching and seeing is only the beginning. The challenge is what happens afterwards.

Exactly!! the subs are there in between AM & PM , while you are not. Hopefully when you get back to the job you can tell if it is done correctly or not, if a mistake is made it is out of your pocket not a GC. The learning curve can be costly
I have also found that materials are not purchased at the same price that a GC can buy them, because the supply houses recognize a high mainenance customer and that there will be a lot of hand holding

Again, it's a not a question of either or. I found that a consulting builder, touring the construction site once a week, was more diligent and forthcoming than than the GC who built my previous house. The latter missed such obvious stuff as roofers running out of drip edge and pressing on without it.
Personally, I like the idea of a construction manager. One hopes it shifts the dynamic from a tendency to hide flaws to one of due diligence. Dunno how the liability question shakes out though. You could have the same tussle over where the blame lies: you for buying inferior materials or the CM for inadequate oversight.
Not to worry about materials. Most of this comes down to DIY competencies. My subs had go-to suppliers they hadn't price checked for years. In a couple cases, I pointed them to much better deals. If you know your way around the Internet, you're a step up on the average plumber or tiilesetter.

" I pointed them to much better deals. If you know your way around the Internet..."
thats one way to look at it. the other is that if you have a problem with it, your "go-to suppliers" will likely stand behind what they sell. On "the Internet", once your card clears they're done with you. The extra cost for the g-t-s starts to look better & better.

Posted By toddm on 23 Oct 2013 06:49 PM
Again, it's a not a question of either or. I found that a consulting builder, touring the construction site once a week, was more diligent and forthcoming than than the GC who built my previous house. The latter missed such obvious stuff as roofers running out of drip edge and pressing on without it.
Personally, I like the idea of a construction manager. One hopes it shifts the dynamic from a tendency to hide flaws to one of due diligence. Dunno how the liability question shakes out though. You could have the same tussle over where the blame lies: you for buying inferior materials or the CM for inadequate oversight.
Not to worry about materials. Most of this comes down to DIY competencies. My subs had go-to suppliers they hadn't price checked for years. In a couple cases, I pointed them to much better deals. If you know your way around the Internet, you're a step up on the average plumber or tiilesetter.

It seems like you had a bad experience with a GC, so all GC's are terrible.  In many of the houses that I have seen being built, one week is a long time, and many things can be covered up in that time.  How will he know what he can't see?

One hopes it shifts the dynamic from a tendency to hide flaws to one of due diligence.

The CM finds everything. :-) It's a matter of pride.

you for buying inferior materials or the CM for inadequate oversight.

Doesn't it go on the subcontractor for not performing as per contract?

the supply houses recognize a high mainenance customer

I usually tell the suppliers that I don't expect the same discount level as their regular volume customers, but as I am buying house sized quantities and paying cash, I do expect something. Purchases like $50,000 lumber orders can be easily bid out and you will likely get a lower price than any of the regular GC's. OTOH, there is no reason why you can't just use your CM's discount schedule at said supplier.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 24 Oct 2013 01:45 AM

One hopes it shifts the dynamic from a tendency to hide flaws to one of due diligence.

The CM finds everything. :-) It's a matter of pride.

you for buying inferior materials or the CM for inadequate oversight.

Doesn't it go on the subcontractor for not performing as per contract?

the supply houses recognize a high mainenance customer

I usually tell the suppliers that I don't expect the same discount level as their regular volume customers, but as I am buying house sized quantities and paying cash, I do expect something. Purchases like $50,000 lumber orders can be easily bid out and you will likely get a lower price than any of the regular GC's. OTOH, there is no reason why you can't just use your CM's discount schedule at said supplier.

It is still"one of" $50 K might seem like a large order to you, but in a builders world that's a slightly biger than average house,

there are no builders in my area making 30% mark up, 20 % max and most likely it's 5% OH. and 10% prof.
I assisted a previous GBT poster buy steel joists/studs in Baton Rouge, I can tell you in this case the price difference was over 20% between mine and his, so even if I was buying materials at my price with 15% mark up, the end user is still buying for less than they could get it for themselves @ a +20% mark up.
and the risk for mistake is all on the GC
there are some cases where a DIY'er can save some money, however unless they have "product knowlege" and a good understanding of contracting, contract law, lein laws, etc.
running a job for the first time is an all consuming venture, at the end of the day I have never come across one of my Owner- builder customers that said they would do it all over again
it is extremely stressful and I have actually seen a husband - wife get divorced before their home was done

It is still"one of" $50 K might seem like a large order to you, but in a builders world that's a slightly biger than average house,

Regardless of how you or I might think about it, Chris, the yards in 3 counties were VERY happy to have a single package of that size to bid in one quote. Particularly with COD terms. And, none of them asked for a deposit. :-)

My CM's usual markup is 0%.

Ironically a blogger/home builder is experiencing the same issues we are discussing here and made the following recent post. From GBA:

Is construction contracting a bait and switch?

"This just seems like a bait and switch to me. A reputable front secures the work and then hands off your project to another team. On a few occasions, I've arrived onsite to find these workers doing the wrong thing, sometimes with the wrong materials, and the contractor no where to be seen. The whole thing seems exploitative.....

The whole way that home construction is done seems incredibly inefficient. I suppose that is a particular issue with custom homes. My wife and I have already decided that our next home, if we ever build it, will be modular. After two custom home builds, we just can't stand the general ineptitude of the traditional process if you are trying to build a green and healthy home."

GBA Q&A

I believe the disconnect again comes into play between the GC and the green energy builds. Most GC's are clueless in the green building realm. Yes, there are the few who know their stuff but the majority don't and the home owner who wants a properly built home using different methods and techniques is found wanting. In the end they are basically forced into being a DIY GC/home owner or not building at all.

As observed on this forum, this problem is real and many people who build a custom green home are experiencing the "general ineptitude" of GC's who attempt to build green and build correctly. The guy above who made those comments hired a GC and even then it's being done incorrectly. So he ends up paying a GC and spending money on a product that in the end will not be properly completed.

My point is that the problem is real and many people are experiencing what we are talking about here. There is a great disconnect out there between most GC's and those looking to build green.

the home owner who wants a properly built home using different methods and techniques is found wanting

My site has been visited by two kinds of people. Both are currently building a home and both are interested in building "Green" or energy efficient homes. One is usually a wealthy guy, building a LARGE place, $2-$3 million and up and the other is a couple building a more modest place, say up to $500,000. When they see what is happening, they both realize they are on the wrong path. One, the wealthy guy usually gets angry because it's not like he hasn't had these suspicions and discussions with his builders, only to be met with confustication. He can often go back to his build, rip a bunch of stuff out and come up with something more like he envisioned in the first place. One guy went back and ripped out an entire geothermal system by the end of the week.

The couple, on the other hand, doesn't have the financial option to go back and fix things and they usually leave depressed because they put so much into building a dream home only to fall short due to what their builder kept telling them.

I have been visited by a third type of person. It's usually someone who WANTS to build a green place and is thinking about how to do it. I rarely see them again. Presumably, they are working too hard on figuring out what how to get it done.

Agree 100% with the last two posts. Competent green building designers and GCs are in short supply. We get a lot of flak from contractors who don’t appreciate that we encourage the DIY approach to green building design/construction and provide free guidance and software to assist with accomplishing this.  It is important for people to identify contractor substance from contractor BS, and only research and acquired knowledge can accomplish this.  While we are licensed, insured, bonded PEs and GCs, we have found that a motivated DIY person willing to take the time to research a green building design/construction project will often have a more successful project outcome than hiring the so called "professional". The old adage is still true; if you want something done right, do it yourself!

Wow this discussion went a little feisty.....

"Most GC's are clueless in the green building realm."

Supply and demand.

If you want a GC to care as much about your home as you do, then you probably don't get to dictate the price.....
If you want a contractor that is "green educated" perhaps spends a lot of time on forums like these learning, then you probably don't get to dictate the price......

"One hopes that today's builders are the product of survival of the fittest."

Unfortunately "the fittest" are now having to compete with the "un-fit" who went bankrupt during the slump, but are ready to take another whack at it.

"I said that there are people on this forum who have built only a couple of homes are telling others that have built many homes how the industry works."

True, but that's nothing new, many of the same people are "expert" in each of the individual technologies here as well.

"I think I can detect truly bad work, but subtle things, I am not sure I would spot those things,...."

A homeowner GC needs to know what things matter as well. Focus on inconsequential things, drives subs crazy.

"You're right; they don't catch them. But, to be fair, BI's seem to be in some sort of a difficult position. If they've never seen the type of construction you're asking them to inspect, how are they going to pull it off? In my case, there probably aren't but a handful of homes built in the county that uses these technologies, and probably ZERO homes that use a combination of them."

Actually, this doesn't present a problem for an experienced code official. I would simply outline the areas I had questions about and ask you to demonstrate compliance. If I'm not familiar with a product or assembly, you would provide me with ample documentation so that I know it meets code.

" Realistically, they either come and say "Wow, this is impressive; I hope you know what you're doing",

Any inspector who says that, needs to retire.

"or they start acting authoritative and splitting the little hairs they (think) they can identify."

.....or, you have XXX requirement, please show me how it is met.

For all of the people who did or didn't build your homes, and are/were planning to be your own owner/builder, how many GC's did you interview.  How did you go about finding and researching your GC?  Did you interview 10, 20, 100?  I think that is an important number to get an idea of how thorough you were during your research.  Some of my friends talked to 1 or 2, and then made a decision, usually, they either asked a friend/coworker who just had a home built, and/or the realtor that they used to purchase the property.  What I found is that the realtor goals and objectives for using a particular GC is not similar to mine.  They usually need quick, inexpensive work on a home to make it have good curb appeal and easier to sell.  Also, when using friends/coworkers, if the only real similarity is that you work in the same company or just happen to be friends by a quirk of fate, it doesn't mean you share the same ideals and goals and similar building philosophies, and so it will be highly unlikely that you find a GC that way.

So, I am just curious how you researched your GC's.  My technique involved talking to the manufacturer.  I talked to a bunch of manufacturers, and then I tasked them to refer people generals and sub contractors that use their product, and then I interviewed those people.

Posted By Lbear on 24 Oct 2013 09:47 AM
Ironically a blogger/home builder is experiencing the same issues we are discussing here and made the following recent post. From GBA:

Is construction contracting a bait and switch?

"This just seems like a bait and switch to me. A reputable front secures the work and then hands off your project to another team. On a few occasions, I've arrived onsite to find these workers doing the wrong thing, sometimes with the wrong materials, and the contractor no where to be seen. The whole thing seems exploitative.....

The whole way that home construction is done seems incredibly inefficient. I suppose that is a particular issue with custom homes. My wife and I have already decided that our next home, if we ever build it, will be modular. After two custom home builds, we just can't stand the general ineptitude of the traditional process if you are trying to build a green and healthy home."

GBA Q&A

I believe the disconnect again comes into play between the GC and the green energy builds. Most GC's are clueless in the green building realm. Yes, there are the few who know their stuff but the majority don't and the home owner who wants a properly built home using different methods and techniques is found wanting. In the end they are basically forced into being a DIY GC/home owner or not building at all.

As observed on this forum, this problem is real and many people who build a custom green home are experiencing the "general ineptitude" of GC's who attempt to build green and build correctly. The guy above who made those comments hired a GC and even then it's being done incorrectly. So he ends up paying a GC and spending money on a product that in the end will not be properly completed.

My point is that the problem is real and many people are experiencing what we are talking about here. There is a great disconnect out there between most GC's and those looking to build green.

Why didn't you also include your GBA guru's answer on this one?  It clearly specifies what normal people think and know about the building industry.  Most general contractors don't have employees.  Usually, if the GC and subcontractors work for the same company, then many/most people would call them a builder.  The original poster just doesn't know the industry, and the fact is that all of you in this forum that are talking about GC's know that GCs "hire" subcontractors to do their work, and the whole issue is that you think the service provided by the GC is "worthless", or much less than what they are charging, but you also know that the subcontractors are doing the "actual" work, and for each home that the GC does, the subcontractor list might or might not be the same.

Also, I would like to ask these people how many GC's they researched.  I bet most people put more effort into researching their latest DSLR, which costs at most $10,000 and most likely less than $1000, than the effort they put into finding a good GC.

And once again, eugenepan is majoring in his minors. I knew exactly who to hire as a GC before building this house myself. He did terrific work, starting with an energy designer, and then charged a terrificly high price. So unless Epan is going to subsidize my house, how does it matter if I interviewed 3 or 300?

This builder, of course, charged a premium price because his niche customers were willing to pay it. No arguments there, unless you talk next about how make green building more than a niche market. Joe Ami thinks that will change once there is one on every block even though, for geo, that hasn't happened 30 years later. So if a guy like me builds an attractive house, brags about my energy bills to my neighbors and speak knowledgeably about green technologies to subs and suppliers, how exactly is that bad?

I dislike these poster to poster arguments, but I have say this: "for geo, that hasn't happened 30 years later" in my area, geothermal systems are half of what they were 10-15 years ago.

Posted By toddm on 25 Oct 2013 04:16 PM
And once again, eugenepan is majoring in his minors. I knew exactly who to hire as a GC before building this house myself. He did terrific work, starting with an energy designer, and then charged a terrific price. So unless Epan is going to subsidize my house, how does it matter if I interviewed 3 or 300?

This builder, of course, charged a premium price because his niche customers were willing to pay it. No arguments there, unless you talk next about how make green building more than a niche market. Joe Ami thinks that will change once there is one on every block even though, for geo, that hasn't happened 30 years later. So if a guy like me builds an attractive house, brags about my energy bills to my neighbors and speak knowledgeably about green technologies to subs and suppliers, how exactly is that bad?

can you debate your point without being an ass?  the original point was that people can't find a good GC, and that they don't exist.  if you only interviewed 3 GC's, how can you honestly say that GC's suck.  you have no idea what exists and what doesn't exist.  I guess you are the guy who takes a survey of one guy, and then can say the world thinks in a particular way.

just get off your high horse.  your house is a shoe box on top of a shoe box with a few interior walls, cramped bathrooms, low utility spiral staircase, no storage, plus a multitude of less than stellar design features.  nothing  to write home to mom about, just a poor layout and nothing hard to build, but i guess you like to sh*t, shower, and shave without having to move.  so, you used a few materials and mechanicals not commonly used in the US.  you could have easily used something more common, and gotten your "great" utility bills.  based on your pictures of your house, i don't know how you made so many mistakes.  your house is so simple that if you can't do that right, how can you expect to design something that would be desirable by anyone other than you and your wife.

Guess ass begets ass. Lbear asked DIYers for their thoughts and experiences. I gave mine, good or bad. You have no experience and no thoughts worth reading.