Will you waterproof those external concrete balconies? If so, what product are you planning on using?

Posted By Joe / RCC on 06 Jul 2013 01:00 PM
I've scrolled through your post.  I found it to be one of the best documented and incredible residential ICF projects I've seen in some time!  I'd would like to ask a few questions.   Who supervised the ICF installation?  With all of the ICF's on the market, why was NUDURA selected for this project?  How was NUDURA's support throughout this project?  Why did you chose ICF's for this project.   Thanks,  Joe / RCC

Joe, the ICF work was done by a guy named Cameron Ware (Double Eagle Builders / Futurestone.com).  He did a great job.  The choice of Nudura was based on my ICF sub.  As the home owner, once the construction is done, the actual brand of block in my walls didn't make much of a difference to me.  I wanted an experienced ICF sub, and he was the best I ran across in the area.  However, having had some experience with another brand of ICF for my storm shelter, I can definitely see several advantages to the Nudura.  If I did another ICF project by myself, I'd probably stick with Nudura.  

I began researching building ideas for a new home about 5 or 6 years ago.  This forum was one of the first resources I found while looking into Insulated Concrete Forms. I decided on ICF's for the home design for a few reasons.  #1) was for strength.  I don't think there is anything out there that can be reasonably done that will top the strength (and low maintenance) of poured in place reinforced concrete.  #2)  Was the energy efficiency benefits.  #3) It allowed for a lot of flexibility in my architectural design.  Building the same spans, tower, larger rooms would have been difficult with other traditional building methods.  I can say that I have had absolutely no regrets with my decisions.

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Will you waterproof those external concrete balconies? If so, what product are you planning on using?

Lbear - I did research waterproofing for balconies quite a bit.  I know I have to get the waterproofing right, especially over occupied space.  I haven't started the balcony tile work yet, but I have the tile, design and my sub picked out.  The concrete balcony slab will first be covered with a paint-on waterproof membrane (not sure what brand, but the sub has it already).  On top of that I will do a second layer of waterproofing (and decoupling) with the schluter ditra membrane.  This will hopefully waterproof as well as reduce any movement / temperature related cracking in the tile.  Finally, I picked a textured, outdoor rated porcelain tile to go on top.  I did make sure all the balconies were poured with a slope away from the house to prevent puddling. 

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I was looking for details on the floor slab. Ie, looking at your 04 Feb 2013 11:05 PM post, how are the ground/interior/exterior insulated?

Jonr - I don't actually have any thermal break under or inside the foundation slab. The pics in the post you referred to show the moisture barrier (just black plastic sheeting), but it is not designed as ground insulation.  In the Dallas area the average ground temperature is about 68 degrees.  With the house temperature not far from the average ground temperature, I didn't feel the need for an under slab thermal break.  However, I have thought about adding some slab edge insulation along the perimeter of the house/foundation.  There are some areas of the foundation edge where it would probably be beneficial and it should be a fairly easy upgrade before I finalize all the grading around the house.

I would add insulation around the slab edge and extending down into the ground wherever there is any possible low R path from the interior to outside air. 68F is for deep down; soil temps near outside air will vary from that significantly.

I just thought I'd post a few updated pictures for those interested. The outside is almost complete. We will probably be starting the drywall in about 7-10 days. Still hoping to finish up and move in by January.

A few brief comments here: The electric chainsaw is definitely the way to go when putting wires in the ICF foam. I tried a few different methods, and despite the bit of a mess it makes, it gives the best end product and is the easiest method. The stone/stucco (EIFS) guy went with a base grey coat with fiberglass mesh (same as under the stucco), then stuck the flagstone directly on with some modified mortar. I think it worked just fine for the stone wainscot.

I'm surprised how long the insuldeck foam can hold water. 2-3 months after the roof was put on, I still had some occasional dripping from the ceiling (water from the original concrete pour or a rain before the roof was finished). I finally went around to the several spots where we would get an occasional drip and just put in a nail hole to drain the remaining water. There was probably 1-3 gallons that immediately drained from each spot. I figured I better do that before we started putting up the drywall.

just put in a nail hole to drain the remaining water

Use a piece of rebar to make a big enough hole to get some air exchange into the insuldeck cavities so the residual can dry up. There are low spots that can hold water until the electricians punch holes for lighting.

So glad you posted the update. I was thrilled to show your house to my hubby. It looks like you used the tile for the roof but I can't tell for sure. What did you use and why? Thanks for letting us all watch your progress.

Beautiful house man. That's all I have to say. Thanks for the update and pictures. Keep them coming.

Posted By dancermommd on 22 Sep 2013 05:05 PM
So glad you posted the update. I was thrilled to show your house to my hubby. It looks like you used the tile for the roof but I can't tell for sure. What did you use and why? Thanks for letting us all watch your progress.

The roof is a clay tile. My wife and I love the look. I checked out a few different companies and went with MCA tile. Their "One Piece S Mission" tile with the "Old Mission" color blend. I picked that particular brand because their customer service was more responsive with getting me samples than another company I spoke with, and their tile was slightly larger. For the rather large house, I felt the bigger tile would seem a bit more proportional.

The tile is elevated off the roof deck by a double batten system, so that there is a 3" air space between the tile and the roof deck. I did this to try to reduce the heat transfer into the attic. The current (old) house has an asphalt shingle roof (like 95% of the roofs here in Texas). I measured the inside the attic roof deck temperature on the current house and the new house to do a comparison. The old house was 127 mid day, and the new house attic measured 92. That was the same day, same side of the roof (south) within a few minutes.

I'll probably add a few inches of spray foam on the underside of the new house roof deck. I think I will end up with a very useable attic space that will stay within several degrees of the conditioned house temp.

Very nice. Did you consider standing seam? Is the clay tile cheaper than concrete tile?

Posted By dford on 01 Oct 2013 09:36 PM
Very nice. Did you consider standing seam? Is the clay tile cheaper than concrete tile?

I went with the clay tile for the roof because fit the style we were going after (Mediterranean / Tuscan) and I felt it was a little more authentic.  If we were going with a different style house, I might consider the standing seam metal roof.  Although, I'm not sure how well they hold up to hail storms. 

Concrete tiles are less expensive, but the estimated lifespan is shorter than clay (50 years for concrete vs. 100+ years for clay). 

Posted By nd96 on 05 Oct 2013 12:49 AM

Posted By dford on 01 Oct 2013 09:36 PM
Very nice. Did you consider standing seam? Is the clay tile cheaper than concrete tile?

I went with the clay tile for the roof because fit the style we were going after (Mediterranean / Tuscan) and I felt it was a little more authentic.  If we were going with a different style house, I might consider the standing seam metal roof.  Although, I'm not sure how well they hold up to hail storms. 

Concrete tiles are less expensive, but the estimated lifespan is shorter than clay (50 years for concrete vs. 100+ years for clay). 

Unless the clay tile is Monier or similar ,
the 100 year lifespan is irrelevant,
as the failure in cement or clay tile roofs are not in the finished roof, they are only decorative
and the real roof is the roll roofing below it , that has a typical lefe span of 20 - 30 years

Posted By cmkavala on 05 Oct 2013 07:41 PM

Unless the clay tile is Monier or similar ,
the 100 year lifespan is irrelevant,
as the failure in cement or clay tile roofs are not in the finished roof, they are only decorative
and the real roof is the roll roofing below it , that has a typical lefe span of 20 - 30 years

I second that. Out here in Phx they install concrete and clay tile roofs but the roofs fail around 15-25 years (desert SW) because the underlayment underneath fails, especially because of the intense heat.

As Chris mentioned, the clay or concrete tiles are only decorative but they do provide some UV protection and protect the underlayment. The tiles themselves do nothing to stop moisture/rain intrusion. Concrete tiles work better than clay tiles in hail. Clay tiles can break or shatter in hail storms.

The one major drawback to clay/concrete tile is when the underlayment fails (which it always does), they have to remove all that heavy tile and get it out of the way before they can replace the underlayment. It is VERY EXPENSIVE to replace the underlayment on a concrete/clay tile roof. It is double or triple the cost of what it originally cost to put the concrete/clay tile roof on. It is much less expensive to replace the underlayment on an asphalt shingle or metal roof.

I find it hard to believe that there isn't some underlayment that when not exposed to the weather, will last 100 years. I've seen galvanized steel used under tile.

Posted By jonr on 06 Oct 2013 10:31 AM
I find it hard to believe that there isn't some underlayment that when not exposed to the weather, will last 100 years. I've seen galvanized steel used under tile.

Except it is exposed to weather on the valleys and that is exactly were they all fail
the other issue with clay or conrete tile is:
after they cook in the sun for 15 plus years they become extremely brittle , any attempt to walk accross the roof for any reason will result in many broken tiles, the broken tile now allows for weather and pests to infitrate under the hollow, bats in particular like tile roofs

Posted By cmkavala on 06 Oct 2013 02:47 PM

the broken tile now allows for weather and pests to infitrate under the hollow, bats in particular like tile roofs

Funny you should mention that. Roof rats love the hollow cavities as do yellow jackets. It's a problem out here in Phx and they have companies that go out and try and seal those tile caverns to prevent roof rats from getting in. The yellow jackets build their hives up in there as it is a protected hollow cavity. I hate those things.



You can see in the photo the company installed a barrier inside of the tile cavity to try and stop the rats from entering. It's a never ending battle out here in Phoenix.




With roofs, I am a firm believer in the less roof penetrations you have, the better. I would rather have one wall penetration for a HRV mechanical ventilation that does all the bathroom vent fans than 4 or 5 roof vent penetrations. Besides valleys, roof vent penetrations are the next biggest leakage problem.

How  in the h@ll does a rat get on the roof in the first place?

Posted By robinnc on 06 Oct 2013 07:21 PM
How  in the h@ll does a rat get on the roof in the first place?

One step at a time.  Rats are not afraid of heights.  Rats can climb if they can find good enough traction.

Posted By robinnc on 06 Oct 2013 07:21 PM
How  in the h@ll does a rat get on the roof in the first place?

Actually, quite easily.

They are master climbers and quite intelligent. They prefer to scale up downspouts, they use above ground electrical wiring that leads to homes, they can climb trees, use PVC piping, etc. They are a significant problem out in Phoenix, especially in the older neighborhoods. Annually they (rodents) cause an estimated 20,000 - 30,000 house fires in the USA due to them chewing on electrical wiring.

They like the clay tile roofs because the tile provides a sort of cavity for them to crawl under and begin to gnaw away at the OSB or 2x4 cross framing. They will gnaw through the wood and then begin to create their nest inside the attic of the home.

They only need a hole the size of a quarter to gain entry.


The only real defense is concrete or steel and not create a pathway for them to enter.

The problem in rural Northern Arizona areas are Norway Rats or Pack Rats. They are more bottom dweller rodents but they do the same damage by gnawing on exterior wood framing and make their way into wall cavities. Although I have seen them enter into attics into Northern AZ homes by climbing up walls. As the saying goes in that area, it's not IF they get in but WHEN they get in.

I agree, the underlayment will fail long before the clay tiles will.

I know I've never built a house before, so I have almost zero experience. But why does anyone still use tar paper as a roof underlayment? That will absolutely limit your underlayment lifespan to 15-25 years at best. I went with a synthetic underlayment that has a 50 year warranty. The valleys have metal flashing, so the underlayment gets no direct UV exposure. Other than trying to cut corners and save a couple hundred dollars, why not go with the synthetic?

I fully expect my underlayment and decking to last over 30 years. I may be wrong, but I think I have a much better chance than most.

I've never seen any roof rats before, but maybe I'll get to meet one some day. I can always stick a couple cats out the tower windows onto the roof.

Posted By nd96 on 06 Oct 2013 11:51 PM
 
But why does anyone still use tar paper as a roof underlayment? That will absolutely limit your underlayment lifespan to 15-25 years at best. I went with a synthetic underlayment that has a 50 year warranty. The valleys have metal flashing, so the underlayment gets no direct UV exposure. Other than trying to cut corners and save a couple hundred dollars, why not go with the synthetic?

I fully expect my underlayment and decking to last over 30 years. I may be wrong, but I think I have a much better chance than most.

I've never seen any roof rats before, but maybe I'll get to meet one some day. I can always stick a couple cats out the tower windows onto the roof.

It always comes down to cost. Unless one is doing their own custom home and specifying better materials, builders will always cut corners and cost, in most cases tar paper is less expensive than synthetic underlayment. The builder will default and go with the cheapest material possible as allowed by code/law.

In my experience in both residential and commercial roofing applications. The first areas to become problematic in roofs are the penetrations like bathroom vents, plumbing stacks, attic vents, etc. Then as Chris mentioned, valleys cause problems also.

One thing to also look out for are stupid pigeons. They will destroy a roof pretty quickly. They produce an acidic poop and when they roost they can cause blockage in water flow areas, like valleys. I've seen valley areas in clay tile roofs get completely blocked from pigeon feathers and fecal matter, thereby causing the valley area to hold water and cause interior roof leaks.

Roof warranties are questionable at best. I have yet to see a roof after a 10 year install and experience a leak, have the roofing company back their warranty. Most of the warranties are pro-rated and the lawyer fine print absolves the roofer from having to replace it even though it is well within the warranty period. Many roofing companies will change names/ownership every few years as a way to avoid being held accountable for roof repairs within the warranty period.

I've dealt with many battles with many companies on windows, roof, wall, structural warranties and NONE of them ever fulfilled their warranty request as they should. It always ends up going to the BBB, Attorney General, Registrar of Contractors, and small claims.

Research the "Pella Lifetime Warranty" debacle and it will become apparent very quickly on how these companies operate and their "Lifetime Warranty" is merely an advertising ploy. Let me change that, the "Limited Lifetime Warranty" with an emphasis on "Limited" and you can thank the fine print on that.

Sorry for the rant....