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New ICF House Project

Last Post 17 Jun 2014 02:10 PM by James02. 226 Replies.

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nd96

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Posts:111

07 May 2013 12:32 AM
Posted By Lbear on 06 May 2013 04:41 PM Wood floors have creep also, while there is a lot more dead weight with concrete floors over a 25' span, that is why engineers take into account the creep of a floor. I wouldn't worry about it and like I mentioned, when framing the interior wood wall underneath it, take that creep into account and all will be well. I asked the framer to put in about 1/2" space between the wood framing and the bottom of the insuldeck in the longer spans. I'm betting the foam can help absorb any additional movement. I'll be surprised if it really drops the full 3/4" (or more), although I'm not ruling out the possibility of being surprised. Hopefully the flooring sub can fix any floor deviations that may be there in 5-6 months when I'm ready to put the tile down. With a quick google search, it looks like the majority of the creep will occur in the first 100 days (although it will continue after that point as well). As long as the majority of the movement occurs before the tile is placed, I think I'll be okay. I made measurements today in several areas. I'll see how much movement actually occurs over the next few months, and I think that will give me a good overall idea on the longer term movement. Fortunately, my goal for completion is around the end of the year. I don't feel any need to rush things at this point.

eugenep

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Posts:144

07 May 2013 10:19 AM
Posted By nd96 on 07 May 2013 12:32 AM Posted By Lbear on 06 May 2013 04:41 PM Wood floors have creep also, while there is a lot more dead weight with concrete floors over a 25' span, that is why engineers take into account the creep of a floor. I wouldn't worry about it and like I mentioned, when framing the interior wood wall underneath it, take that creep into account and all will be well. I asked the framer to put in about 1/2" space between the wood framing and the bottom of the insuldeck in the longer spans. I'm betting the foam can help absorb any additional movement. I'll be surprised if it really drops the full 3/4" (or more), although I'm not ruling out the possibility of being surprised. Hopefully the flooring sub can fix any floor deviations that may be there in 5-6 months when I'm ready to put the tile down. With a quick google search, it looks like the majority of the creep will occur in the first 100 days (although it will continue after that point as well). As long as the majority of the movement occurs before the tile is placed, I think I'll be okay. I made measurements today in several areas. I'll see how much movement actually occurs over the next few months, and I think that will give me a good overall idea on the longer term movement. Fortunately, my goal for completion is around the end of the year. I don't feel any need to rush things at this point. When you put in the space, is that because you are hanging the wall assembly from the ceiling, or are you shimming? Or are you doing some kind of floating wall? I am thinking about using amdeck, and I might have this same issue. I am trying to picture how you put in the space because I assumed the wall was connected directly to the floor. thanks, eugene

ICFHybrid

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Posts:3039

07 May 2013 11:20 AM
I asked the framer to put in about 1/2" space between the wood framing and the bottom of the insuldeck in the longer spans How is the wall fixed at the top, then? One of my interior walls was actually a line of supports for the forms above. We simply didn't remove it after the pour and I have seen no evidence of creep or settling on it whatsoever.

FBBP

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Posts:1215

07 May 2013 04:08 PM
Almost every tall building in any "down town" core is built with suspended slabs. When we subdivide the floors for multi pule tenancies we need to fire rate that demising wall. This means drywall from the top of the floor slab to the bottom of the ceiling slab. I have never seen drywall buckle because of "creep". Yes there is always some movement in the slabs due to thermal expansion, but in most cases interior floors stay at close to the same temperature so the is not much change. Even in parking garage were the temps can go from minus 40 to plus 90 there is not that much movement although different procedures are put in place to control it in these cases. Also these floors don't have a lot of cracks in them.

Lbear

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07 May 2013 06:45 PM
The way they frame it is they permanently attach a bottom plate to the concrete slab. Then they attach another stud a few inches up from the bottom plate but this stud is "floating" in the sense that a long nail allows it to move up or down.

nd96

Basic Member

Posts:111

08 May 2013 03:52 AM
Posted By eugenep on 07 May 2013 10:19 AM When you put in the space, is that because you are hanging the wall assembly from the ceiling, or are you shimming? Or are you doing some kind of floating wall? I am thinking about using amdeck, and I might have this same issue. I am trying to picture how you put in the space because I assumed the wall was connected directly to the floor. thanks, eugene Yes, the 2x4 walls are connected to the floor. We are just adding shims between the top of the 2x4 wall and the foam above. The shims should compress into the foam pretty easily if the floor above does settle. I wouldn't be surprised if the space and shims aren't absolutely necessary, but I'd rather play it safe. I only asked the framers to do this under the middle of the longer (20ft +) insuldeck spans. I don't think it is needed elsewhere. I'll take another measurement after the first 30 days and post how much (if any) change there is under the longer spans. They have started taking out the temporary shoring for the floors. It is really beginning to open up on the inside. The roof framing and windows will be next.

eugenep

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Posts:144

08 May 2013 02:01 PM
I watched your video, but I am not sure of something. Did you do radiant heat? I am guessing no, because you seemed to pour very quickly after assembling the decking. I am planning to do radiant with my amdeck, and I was hoping you did it, and if so, how did it go?

eugenep

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Posts:144

08 May 2013 02:02 PM
Posted By nd96 on 08 May 2013 03:52 AM Posted By eugenep on 07 May 2013 10:19 AM When you put in the space, is that because you are hanging the wall assembly from the ceiling, or are you shimming? Or are you doing some kind of floating wall? I am thinking about using amdeck, and I might have this same issue. I am trying to picture how you put in the space because I assumed the wall was connected directly to the floor. thanks, eugene Yes, the 2x4 walls are connected to the floor. We are just adding shims between the top of the 2x4 wall and the foam above. The shims should compress into the foam pretty easily if the floor above does settle. I wouldn't be surprised if the space and shims aren't absolutely necessary, but I'd rather play it safe. I only asked the framers to do this under the middle of the longer (20ft +) insuldeck spans. I don't think it is needed elsewhere. I'll take another measurement after the first 30 days and post how much (if any) change there is under the longer spans. They have started taking out the temporary shoring for the floors. It is really beginning to open up on the inside. The roof framing and windows will be next. How many days after the pour are you removing the temporary shoring. My guy said he wanted to wait 21 days.

nd96

Basic Member

Posts:111

08 May 2013 10:00 PM
Posted By eugenep on 08 May 2013 02:02 PM How many days after the pour are you removing the temporary shoring. My guy said he wanted to wait 21 days. The engineer required that the shoring holding up the second floor stay in place until after attic floor shoring was removed. He wanted 10-14 days for the attic shoring before we removed it. We started taking it down at 10 days, and finished the portion under the tower today (15 days). I made some concrete test cylinders on the 3500psi (wall) and 4000psi (floor) concrete. We did the 28 day break on 3 samples of the 3500, and they came back at a little over 7200psi (6970-7810). It looks like we got some pretty good concrete. So even though I have the floor cracks, I don't think I have to worry about this house having any structural issues. I won't have the 4000psi results for another couple weeks, but my guess is 8000+ on the break test (same mix, just higher sack). It would be interesting to know if the higher than designed / expected psi affects the long term creep of the spans. I did not put any radiant heating into the floors. My wife wants it in the master bath, so I may look into the electrical under the tile heating. I just haven't researched that part of the construction process enough to make a decision. Budget considerations are another part of it. We will see how we are doing when we get closer to that point.

eugenep

Basic Member

Posts:144

08 May 2013 10:16 PM
Posted By nd96 on 08 May 2013 10:00 PM Posted By eugenep on 08 May 2013 02:02 PM How many days after the pour are you removing the temporary shoring. My guy said he wanted to wait 21 days. The engineer required that the shoring holding up the second floor stay in place until after attic floor shoring was removed. He wanted 10-14 days for the attic shoring before we removed it. We started taking it down at 10 days, and finished the portion under the tower today (15 days). I made some concrete test cylinders on the 3500psi (wall) and 4000psi (floor) concrete. We did the 28 day break on 3 samples of the 3500, and they came back at a little over 7200psi (6970-7810). It looks like we got some pretty good concrete. So even though I have the floor cracks, I don't think I have to worry about this house having any structural issues. I won't have the 4000psi results for another couple weeks, but my guess is 8000+ on the break test (same mix, just higher sack). It would be interesting to know if the higher psi affects the long term creep of the spans. I did not put any radiant heating into the floors. My wife wants it in the master bath, so I may look into the electrical under the tile heating. I just haven't researched that part of the construction process enough to make a decision. Budget considerations are another part of it. We will see how we are doing when we get closer to that point. Thanks for the information. Your ICF portion looks massive and pretty decorative. I think just that part would've blown my budget. I am now at the point that I have to start removing some things from the house because we look like we are over budget, and I haven't even removed the old house yet. I definitely want the ICF and amdeck, and I want radiant, so now we have to see what has to get cut. How did you work your budget? Are you planning to leave some stuff "unfinished", and then finish it later? I am only single story, so I don't have that option. I just have to cut some things that won't cost that much more if I do it later, like a trellis.

Alton

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Posts:2164

08 May 2013 10:24 PM
If you do research electrical radiant systems, then please share your findings with us.

Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979

ICFHybrid

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Posts:3039

09 May 2013 12:18 AM
because you seemed to pour very quickly after assembling the decking Radiant goes in in literally a few hours. We were easily doing 800-1200 square feet per person per day.

ICFHybrid

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Posts:3039

09 May 2013 12:26 AM
How many days after the pour are you removing the temporary shoring. My guy said he wanted to wait 21 days. Removal of the shoring depends on the engineering. Typically, the engineers will allow removal when the concrete cures to 75% of the specified engineering strength. Depends on mix and curing conditions, but might be as little as 7 days or less.

dmaceld

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09 May 2013 01:09 AM
Posted By nd96 on 08 May 2013 10:00 PM I did not put any radiant heating into the floors. My wife wants it in the master bath, so I may look into the electrical under the tile heating. I just haven't researched that part of the construction process enough to make a decision. Budget considerations are another part of it. We will see how we are doing when we get closer to that point. I used Step WarmFloor, www.warmfloor.com, in my master bath shower, both on the floor and about 4' up the walls. The shower is very comfortable in the morning. No cold walls or floor at all! It goes in right under the tile quite nicely and is only 24 volt system. If you think you might use it ask me about a couple of minor issues I dealt with.

Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!

nd96

Basic Member

Posts:111

09 May 2013 05:00 AM
How did you work your budget? My budget was about 30% savings and 70% construction loan. I had priced out the windows and started making material / appliance purchases months before breaking ground. I shopped around and got bids for the major / most difficult portions of the job before I went to the bank. I got a turn-key price from the ICF sub (largest expense in the building). I met with and got bids from 3 foundation companies, 4 plumbers, 4 electricians, a couple of framers, 3 HVAC companies, and 4 different stucco/exterior companies. It took about 2 1/2 months of loan work to finally get one approved and signed. During that process I had made decisions on all of the subs. Make sure you get at least 3 bids on all the major portions (if you can). With just the plumbing, I got one bid in the 60's ($60,000), one in the 50's, one in the 40's and one in the upper 30's - all on the same plumbing design. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean a better job. I met with each company individually, and the one I felt most comfortable with was the least expensive. The price differences were a little less pronounced with the foundation, stucco, electrical and HVAC, but they still varied 20-50%. There are some portions that I haven't made decisions on yet - like iron work, interior finish and flooring. But I'm working on it and figuring things out as I go. Are you planning to leave some stuff "unfinished", and then finish it later? My goal is to try to get the house interior complete by the end of the year, then move in at that time. I'd rather not be working on the interior after we move in. However, there are 6 of us in a 2 bedroom house right now (my wife and I in one room, 3 kids in another room and the baby in a closet), so I don't think the wife will put up with this much longer than my stated goal. I'll probably save the driveway, back patio/pool and finishing out the storm shelter until after we have moved into the house. I just don't have enough free time to get it all done this year.

eugenep

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Posts:144

09 May 2013 02:58 PM
Posted By nd96 on 09 May 2013 05:00 AM How did you work your budget? My budget was about 30% savings and 70% construction loan. I had priced out the windows and started making material / appliance purchases months before breaking ground. I shopped around and got bids for the major / most difficult portions of the job before I went to the bank. I got a turn-key price from the ICF sub (largest expense in the building). I met with and got bids from 3 foundation companies, 4 plumbers, 4 electricians, a couple of framers, 3 HVAC companies, and 4 different stucco/exterior companies. It took about 2 1/2 months of loan work to finally get one approved and signed. During that process I had made decisions on all of the subs. Make sure you get at least 3 bids on all the major portions (if you can). With just the plumbing, I got one bid in the 60's ($60,000), one in the 50's, one in the 40's and one in the upper 30's - all on the same plumbing design. More expensive doesn't necessarily mean a better job. I met with each company individually, and the one I felt most comfortable with was the least expensive. The price differences were a little less pronounced with the foundation, stucco, electrical and HVAC, but they still varied 20-50%. There are some portions that I haven't made decisions on yet - like iron work, interior finish and flooring. But I'm working on it and figuring things out as I go. Are you planning to leave some stuff "unfinished", and then finish it later? My goal is to try to get the house interior complete by the end of the year, then move in at that time. I'd rather not be working on the interior after we move in. However, there are 6 of us in a 2 bedroom house right now (my wife and I in one room, 3 kids in another room and the baby in a closet), so I don't think the wife will put up with this much longer than my stated goal. I'll probably save the driveway, back patio/pool and finishing out the storm shelter until after we have moved into the house. I just don't have enough free time to get it all done this year. I was planning to get a GC to do the work, but it was way, way over my budget. I did many of the things that you mentioned. I priced out appliances, windows, doors, ICF floors, Amdeck, hardwood flooring, cabinets, trusses, and roofing. the icf walls and floors quotes are pretty similar from a couple of contractors. i am starting to do the plumbing. i worry about that one the most, and then i plan to look at electrical, hvac, framing, drywall. with my own numbers, i seem to be well within my budget, but i am sure that i am missing something. good luck with your schedule. i feel your current housing pain.

Lbear

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09 May 2013 04:24 PM
Posted By nd96 on 08 May 2013 10:00 PM I made some concrete test cylinders on the 3500psi (wall) and 4000psi (floor) concrete. We did the 28 day break on 3 samples of the 3500, and they came back at a little over 7200psi (6970-7810). It looks like we got some pretty good concrete. So even though I have the floor cracks, I don't think I have to worry about this house having any structural issues. I won't have the 4000psi results for another couple weeks, but my guess is 8000+ on the break test (same mix, just higher sack). It would be interesting to know if the higher than designed / expected psi affects the long term creep of the spans. Doing concrete cylinder tests is a very good idea. It's mandatory in commercial applications but in residential it's up to the homeowner. 7,000psi is way more than enough and shows that the mix and curing went well. I've done some DIY concrete work around my home and lot and I noticed that the higher psi mixes have less cracks. There was one bag mix that I did for a culvert that had 5,000+ psi mix and that one is completely crack free. I've seen them do cylinder testing on highway overpasses. They don't mess around with that stuff and there are engineers who keep constant vigil as peoples lives are at stake and big dollars are at stake. I do know of a ICF job that the concrete was not tested (no slump test and no cylinder test) and when the electricians went in to do the electrical, the concrete would crumble when touched. They cored out the wall and sent it in for testing, turns out it was around 1,000psi or less. The concrete plant had a malfunction with the mix and somehow the mixing got all screwed up and had a bad batch. It was a costly mistake because they had to bulldoze the entire ICF wall assembly and start over.

nd96

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10 May 2013 02:08 AM
Sure glad my samples didn't come back at 1000psi. That would be a disaster. But I'm pretty sure one of us would have noticed before this point. I think $78 a yard for 7200psi with pea gravel was a pretty good deal. We put a total of 851 yards of concrete into the house (including the foundation). The storm shelter was another 180 yards. Most of the windows came in yesterday. The tower windows and most of the exterior doors are probably 2-3 weeks away. They have started with the roof framing. I hope to have the stucco on and everything dried in by the end of next month. I have a lot of details to figure out on the interior finish, but I should have about 6 months to work on it and still make my schedule.

Lbear

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10 May 2013 05:04 PM
Posted By nd96 on 10 May 2013 02:08 AM Sure glad my samples didn't come back at 1000psi. That would be a disaster. But I'm pretty sure one of us would have noticed before this point. I think $78 a yard for 7200psi with pea gravel was a pretty good deal. We put a total of 851 yards of concrete into the house (including the foundation). The storm shelter was another 180 yards. Most of the windows came in yesterday. The tower windows and most of the exterior doors are probably 2-3 weeks away. They have started with the roof framing. I hope to have the stucco on and everything dried in by the end of next month. I have a lot of details to figure out on the interior finish, but I should have about 6 months to work on it and still make my schedule. Your ICF wall might actually be higher than 7200psi because concrete cures very slowly within an ICF wall. It's almost the perfect curing condition. That's why the can do pours when it's windy or hot as the EPS provides protection from these elements. The test cylinders cured within PVC tubes, right? 851 yards is A LOT of concrete. I believe 3,000psi is the absolute bare minimum for an ICF wall. I wouldn't go that low, there is no cost savings in a 3,000psi vs 5,000psi mix. The 7200psi is more than double the requirement and at $78 a yard, that is a very good deal. Out here 5,000psi mixes run around $88 a yard. Post some pics of the window installs, up close, I would be curious to see how they will attach them. Are they recessed windows or are the flush mounted?

nd96

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14 May 2013 01:35 AM
Posted By Lbear on 10 May 2013 05:04 PM Post some pics of the window installs, up close, I would be curious to see how they will attach them. Are they recessed windows or are the flush mounted? The windows will be recessed about 3". Just enough to hopefully help with the efficiency and provide a little better protection from the weather (sun, hail and wind). Probably won't make a big difference, but I thought it might help a little. I prefer the recessed look anyways. The wood nailer is set back 3" into the opening. Will will do a 9" butyl waterproofing wrap covering the top of the nailer to the outside face of the wall, caulk the edges and set the window in. After the window is secured we will do an additional 6" butyl wrap from the outside of the nailing flange of the window to the face of the wall. The stucco company will take it from there. We are working on framing the roof this week. After the roof is framed up and decking down (next week), I think we will move on to installing the windows. I'll post some pictures when we get to that point.