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nd96
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 08 Jun 2013 06:46 PM |
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Things are looking good. I agree about your assessment on the creep. That's not bad at all for spans of 26 feet.
Have you started on the electrical?
When you get the windows, if you can take a few install pics, that would be great. I would be interested to see on how they install them.
The house is coming together. The hardest parts are done; the foundation and walls. Thanks for the updates!!
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nd96
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 09 Jun 2013 06:00 AM |
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I'll try to post an occasional update, including windows/doors.
We just barely started any electrical work. Mainly outside boxes to get ready for stucco, and some soffit lights that I am doing myself. I plan on doing a home automation system. After some research, I decided to go with the Insteon product line. They offer a lot of products/features, price is reasonable, and the quality of their products seems to have improved over the past few years. It should be much better than the x10 system we have in the current house.
I have a little over 6 months left in my 12 month construction loan. I think we are still on track at this point. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 10 Jun 2013 01:39 AM |
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Posted By nd96 on 09 Jun 2013 06:00 AM
I'll try to post an occasional update, including windows/doors.
We just barely started any electrical work. Mainly outside boxes to get ready for stucco, and some soffit lights that I am doing myself. I plan on doing a home automation system. After some research, I decided to go with the Insteon product line. They offer a lot of products/features, price is reasonable, and the quality of their products seems to have improved over the past few years. It should be much better than the x10 system we have in the current house.
I have a little over 6 months left in my 12 month construction loan. I think we are still on track at this point.
Do you know if they will use the hot knife or chainsaw option when it comes to running the Romex in the foam? Remember, if you are not using conduit, make sure you use Romex that is suited to be in-cased and in contact with EPS. |
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nd96
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 10 Jun 2013 06:40 AM |
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Posted By Lbear on 10 Jun 2013 01:39 AM
Do you know if they will use the hot knife or chainsaw option when it comes to running the Romex in the foam?
Remember, if you are not using conduit, make sure you use Romex that is suited to be in-cased and in contact with EPS.
The company I am using for most of the electrical work has done one previous ICF house. They do have a chainsaw they said they could use. I also have a hand held router, with an appropriately sized (1/4" x 2 1/4") bit that worked well on a test section I did. I'm thinking the router with a template for boxes might be a little more precise. I'll probably have them try both to start, and we will see what we like best. The hot knife I think would be too slow, especially with cutting through any of the vertical plastic ties. I did look at the romex in EPS thread and the issue it brought up with the plasticizers, but I wonder how much of a problem that really is. The linked article mentioned that at temperatures below 60C (140F), even at 50% usage, it shouldn't be any problem for 50+ years. So my impression was that maybe in long-term, high temperature (under size / over amperage wire) it might be might be an issue. But under normal residential use with appropriately sized wire I am betting on it not being a big concern. I plan on using 12 gauge or better copper wire for all the circuits (no 14 gauge in the house). Even if the wire does loose some of its flexibility over the next 100 years, it won't be flexing in the EPS anyways, so again it seems like minimum risk. I didn't find much else about the issue on-line, so I don't know how common a problem it really is. That being said, I am not an expert and I'll gladly take additional information/input from others. My opinion is subject to change. |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 10 Jun 2013 11:11 AM |
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Posted By nd96 on 10 Jun 2013 06:40 AM
The hot knife I think would be too slow, especially with cutting through any of the vertical plastic ties.
Agree as far as cutting through the webs. I found the hot knife with a rectangular wire to work wonderfully well to cut box holes. I think it would much easier than a router. The wire loop was the correct depth and the width of a single gang box. Multiple passes for 2, 3, & 4 gang boxes worked pretty fast. Do your blocks have a gap between the ends of the webs? My blocks did so I made most all of my horizontal channels along the block joints where I didn't have to cut the webs. |
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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nd96
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 10 Jun 2013 01:31 PM |
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The blocks do have webs that extend into the horizontal seams. A good thought for running the wire if they didn't. I think the router will work well, but I'll leave it up to the sub.
I've never tried it, but I agree that the hot wire loop might be the best way to do boxes. Which one(s) have you used or do recommend?
Thanks. |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 10 Jun 2013 05:27 PM |
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Posted By nd96 on 10 Jun 2013 01:31 PM
I've never tried it, but I agree that the hot wire loop might be the best way to do boxes. Which one(s) have you used or do recommend?
The one I used is from http://www.wind-lock.com. Click on ecatalog and go to page 56. It's the 2-QC knife with blade kit, Item 3. I didn't use the hot knife for grooving because it was slow for that. A $40 Remington electric chain saw from Wally World worked great. I added a bolt with with 2" (?) casters, removed from caster assemblies, for a depth guide in the hole at the end of the blade. |
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 10 Jun 2013 07:54 PM |
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The one drawback to the chainsaw method is that it makes a pretty big mess with all the EPS snow. That stuff gets EVERYWHERE.
Once you channel out the EPS for the electrical and plumbing, what kind of spray foam do you use to seal it back up? Do they have the same R-Value as the EPS?
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 10 Jun 2013 08:54 PM |
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Posted By Lbear on 10 Jun 2013 07:54 PM
The one drawback to the chainsaw method is that it makes a pretty big mess with all the EPS snow. That stuff gets EVERYWHERE.
Yes it does. But that was the primary method most everyone was using 5 years ago when I put up my walls.
Once you channel out the EPS for the electrical and plumbing, what kind of spray foam do you use to seal it back up? Do they have the same R-Value as the EPS?
I didn't bother to seal the grooves, except in a few places to help hold the wire down. Two reasons I didn't. First, there's a difference between being anal and being practical. You can go nuts trying to chase down every 1/10 Btuh of heat loss. Filling in the grooves wasn't worth the hassle IMO. Second, most of the grooves somewhat closed back in on themselves. I had to use a stick to push the wire in because the groove was so narrow. IIRC, I used the hot knife to cut the channels for plumbing. Made more sense in that case. Whenever I had a cutout somewhat larger than the object in it I did foam it in. |
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 11 Jun 2013 02:26 AM |
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One thing I did on my design was to try and not run any plumbing lines on exterior walls. While not always feasible, we did our best to keep water lines from exterior walls. I had to shift the kitchen sink around to avoid that exterior wall. I am in a Zone4 climate but colder climates would probably benefit even more from keeping water lines from exterior facing walls. On ICF jobs, that really saves on plumbing labor and cutting into the foam. This is what I want to avoid:  This requires a lot of foam cutting out and a lot of foam fill when finished. Also, it appears that the sewer line came out a little and the drywall might not sit flush on the wall in that spot. If that is a 2" line then it's a tight fit between the concrete and drywall, if it's a 3" line, you got problems. On a 2 5/8" EPS wall, getting a 2" line to sit flush against the concrete is not an easy task for the plumbers. This only gives them 5/8" or wiggle room before the line would stick out too far and cause drywall problems. One would have to furr the wall out if it was a 3" line. That's why I think it's better to keep plumbing lines away from exterior ICF walls. One thing that is nice in the picture is the concrete consolidation. There are no voids and that is a nice solid mix. Speaking of mini split wall units. Would those anchor INTO the concrete core or merely use the ICF attachment strips to attach the interior unit? |
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nd96
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 04 Jul 2013 03:20 AM |
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Sorry it has taken so long, but here are some window installation pics for those interested. I basically just followed the recommendations of my ICF guy.  Since I wanted to recess my windows about 3 inches, there are 2 layers to the window buck. The treated lumber that is in contact with the concrete, then an untreated (double 2x4) inner frame that allows the window to sit recessed. The window nailing fins are secured to the inner frame.  We wrapped the exterior portion of the frame first with a 9" butyl window flashing. A bead of caulk was then applied where the window nailing fins will come into contact with the buck.  The windows were placed and secured. You can see the nailing fin and barely make out the nails along the right side in the above pic.  A second layer of 6" butyl was then applied over the exposed window nailing fins and wrapped around to the outside face of the wall.  A view from the inside. |
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nd96
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 04 Jul 2013 04:27 AM |
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  Here are a couple updated pictures. We are getting close to finishing the exterior. We still need to put to put the exterior doors in place and finish the roof tile on the front porches. They will be starting the stucco (EIFS) next week. |
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jdebree
Basic Member
Posts:497
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| 04 Jul 2013 06:42 AM |
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Great pics! I'm at about the same point as you now, with my much smaller and slower build. I just got my windows and doors in.
As for the 2" pipe in the ICF- 2" pipe measures about 2-3/8", but the fittings that go over it are almost 2-3/4". They won't quite fit flush in the 2-5/8" foam. The only place I have this is in the basement. I guess if it was in a critical area, you could grind the concrete away to clear the joints. My wife insisted on having the kitchen sink under a window (one of here few requests, actually), so I had to put the pipe in the wall. In our mild climate, I'm not worried about the loss of insulation, or the pipes freezing, but it was a PITA to cut the foam and webs out. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 04 Jul 2013 10:29 AM |
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you could grind the concrete away to clear the joints. You can also cut holes in the drywall and "patch" them with a thinner drywall at the joints. We used 5/8 drywall everywhere which gave us the option to drop down to 1/2", 3/8" and even 1/4" in places where the plumber left the joints standing proud. |
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FBBP
Veteran Member
Posts:1215
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| 04 Jul 2013 10:42 AM |
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To steal a line - it gets better looking each day! Love the design.
Not so sure about the window flashing detail. Any condensate/bulk water getting in the window area is trapped by the second layer of butyl. From there its only choice is to wrap around the wood buck (which might rot) into the foam cracks. If there is sufficient moisture it will continue down to what ever is below it. If this is another window on a lower level, it is again trapped and forced over the upper buck and into the house.
Because it is an ICF house and there is a lot of the little spaces between the foam panels for the moisture to sit, it might breath out over time and do no harm but it is a risk factor.
Also try to have your stucco man detail the tops of the foam over the window as a "drip Edge" so that the water coming down the face of the wall has to drop off rather than wrap back into the window opening. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 04 Jul 2013 10:49 AM |
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I realize this is going way back, but how was foam under the slab done? |
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nd96
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 06 Jul 2013 03:58 AM |
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Posted By jonr on 04 Jul 2013 10:49 AM
I realize this is going way back, but how was foam under the slab done? I guess you are referring to the thermal break in the balcony slabs? Here is a diagram I made up, and the engineer okay-ed.  Basically, the concrete joists are continuous between inside the house and the outside balconies, but there is an 1" or so of closed cell spray foam that caped off each joist. On a separate pour, the 3" reinforced cap was placed. So the 3" cap or slab is floating on a layer of foam and is thermally broken from the joists holding up the balcony spans. The balcony spans are all between 6 and 12'. Nothing too long, so the 8" deep joist was sufficient to hold them up. Each end of the span is supported by concrete or ICF walls, so nothing is cantilevered.  Before spray foam.  After spray foam. The cap will not be thermally connected to any of the structural concrete. This allows the outdoor balcony slabs to heat up during the hot summer months and freeze during the winter without significantly impacting the inside floors and walls. Without this thermal break, I was afraid the 1000sqft of outdoor balcony space would have a pretty substantial effect on the efficiency of the home. FBBP: Thanks for the design compliment. I started from scratch and it took about a year to get the design pretty much finalized. As far as the window flashing goes, I can understand your point about trapping the water. Both the ICF guy and stucco (EIFS) thought this was probably the best way to do the windows. If there was wood or something between the two layers of butyl wrap that would wick or draw the water in, then I could see that being more of a concern. But the only thing between the two layers is the vinyl nailing fin, so I'm not too concerned. They started the first coat of EIFS and fiberglass mesh today. We are probably looking at about 3 weeks for the entire EIFS and trim process. I'm looking forward to getting the outside finished and getting to work full time on the interior details. |
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Joe / RCC
New Member
Posts:5
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| 06 Jul 2013 01:00 PM |
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I've scrolled through your post. I found it to be one of the best documented and incredible residential ICF projects I've seen in some time! I'd would like to ask a few questions. Who supervised the ICF installation? With all of the ICF's on the market, why was NUDURA selected for this project? How was NUDURA's support throughout this project? Why did you chose ICF's for this project. Thanks, Joe / RCC
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 06 Jul 2013 02:18 PM |
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Interesting on the balcony thermal breaks, thanks. I was looking for details on the floor slab. Ie, looking at your 04 Feb 2013 11:05 PM post, how are the ground/interior/exterior insulated? |
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