Posted By Lbear on 20 Jan 2014 03:44 PM
That footing width was pretty insane. A 72" wide footing for a home is the largest I've seen. I assume you are in a Seismic Design Category "D" area?

It would be interesting to know the breakdown of what the foundation/footings cost.

That form fabric for the footings, what is it's main purpose? Is it a vapor barrier for the footing to protect the concrete from the soil so that the soil doesn't rob all the moisture out of the curing concrete or does it serve some other purpose?

I am unsure of the zone.  I am in Santa Clara county.

My builder is using their employees to make all of the footings, so it would be hard to break out the cost. 

I am just using mostly the reasons provided on fab form's website

http://www.fab-form.com/index.php

I want to keep the concrete from invading my property as best as I can.  I want to keep the concrete moisture content to be based on what the concrete supplier wants.  I want the finished concrete to not wick water into my home.

My main reason was the water wicking to keep the crawl space and house drier.

Posted By ba_icf on 20 Jan 2014 05:31 PM

When I did my own back of the napkin calculation, it wasn't that big, so they are adding quite a bit for seismic and margin.

I know that I am in a seismic zone, but I am not sure of the zone.  I am in Santa Clara county.

My soils guy would only commit to the minimum 1500 psf.  We were originally planning to build a basement, and some of the soil at some depths wasn't that great.

I don't know the exact reasoning behind the size of the footing.  The structural engineer that I used said it needed to be this big.  Where it is the largest, I have an 18' wall.  My walls range from 10' to 18' plus the stem wall which is about 3'.  Also, I think the specified the slab as thicker because I wanted to have zero threshold showers, utility room, and mechanical room, so they blocked out more than 1" for the drain slope.  So, everywhere else has to be thicker

I talked to a couple of structural engineers when I was getting quotes, and they all mentioned massive footings.  My builder said that his guy that I didn't use recommended a mat slab on their other project.  So, I guess if you want to have the structural strength of a mat slab, but prefer perimeter foundations, then they will be massive.

That's why I was curious as to the price breakdown of such a foundation. Being that the footings are so large and the rebar schedule is hefty, I was wondering what it cost.

One thing for sure, the home is not going anywhere with such massive footings.

House is moving along at a solid pace.  Starting to install my windows.  I had a couple of bids, and it was way more than I had anticipated.  Basically, $1000 window.   I am using tilt and turn windows, and I wanted to install them in a slightly strange manner, but we decided to install them slightly recessed from the inside with a drywall return.  It will be about 2" of drywall on the return.  Originally, we were planning to have them flush to the inside, but that created quite a few problems with the way the windows were designed and brackets needed to be used, and the built-in shims were being wasted.

HVAC is going in, electrical is moving along, plumbing is moving along, shingles should be installed soon.  i think I might get drywall done in 3 weeks if everything goes well.

Is that HVAC equipment being installed in an unconditioned attic as per photos 250 & 251?

Posted By Lbear on 18 Feb 2014 09:21 PM
Is that HVAC equipment being installed in an unconditioned attic as per photos 250 & 251?

no, my attic will all be conditioned space.  i will have either open or closed cell foam blown under the roof deck.  it is unvented and conditioned. 

how's your building coming along?

stucco is almost complete.  we are doing a very smooth finish, and I guess it just takes longer. 

exterior siding is all complete.

interior is painted.  recessed cans have been trimmed out.  most outlets have been trimmed.  many switches have been trimmed.  hardwood floor has been installed.  kitchen wall base cabinets are installed.  all swinging doors have been installed and trimmed, all pocket doors have been installed.

hopefully, they start on the tiling next week.  Once that starts, we will be in the home stretch.  we aren't doing any crown moulding or any ceiling details.

our big issues seem to be that we used all Italian windows, entry door, patio door, folding door, interior doors.  there was some learning curve involved, and also some parts weren't specified correctly.

we hope to move into our house in the next couple of months.

I was wondering about your windows as we are also getting tilt and turn windows from Europe. How much did you end up paying for installing one window? How many Italian windows/doors did you install? What difficulties did you have with installing them? We will start with the footers of our ICF home next week. We are first time Owner Builders and this will be our retirement home. We didn't decide yet on the stucco. May I ask what the sq ft price for your stucco was and did you use a certain stucco. Was it cheaper to install stucco on ICF? That's what we heard in the past. Thanks.

Posted By Rafi on 28 Jun 2014 11:07 PM
I was wondering about your windows as we are also getting tilt and turn windows from Europe. How much did you end up paying for installing one window? How many Italian windows/doors did you install? What difficulties did you have with installing them? We will start with the footers of our ICF home next week. We are first time Owner Builders and this will be our retirement home. We didn't decide yet on the stucco. May I ask what the sq ft price for your stucco was and did you use a certain stucco. Was it cheaper to install stucco on ICF? That's what we heard in the past. Thanks.

I paid $16k.  I installed 20 exterior windows, 3 interior windows, 1 entry door, 1 folding door, 2 patio doors.  I probably paid more than I should've, but my contractor just compared against others, and didn't really bid on his own.  3 windows were 9'x5', folding door was 10'wX9'h, 2 7.5'x3.5' windows.  The rest were more of a normal size of which 5'x5' was the most common size.  Entry door was solid mahogany 9'x6', with that including a 1' transom, and 1.5' side lights.

All of the doors are assumed installed based on the completed floor height, so just a consideration, and I little difficulty because we had to decide on the floor very early in the process.  My windows had built-in shims, so it was pretty easy once, they knew how to do it.  The fixed windows had to remove the weather stripping, so they could have access to the shim, and then the glass was replaced and the weather stripping re-installed.  Because we didn't have a flange, just make sure they put some kind of stop so the windows don't fall out the other side.  My guys used them as stops and also as a reference for the depth.

I don't know how much most things cost.  I only know that I was up-charged $4200 for the super smooth stucco finish.

I am not sure of the cost comparison.  For my stucco installation, it was ICF, the 2 layers of paper and the lath were installed directly to the ICF.  My stucco process was all like normal stick built from what I could tell, so I am not sure why it would be cheaper.

Posted By ba_icf on 29 Jun 2014 10:34 PM

I don't know how much most things cost.  I only know that I was up-charged $4200 for the super smooth stucco finish.

I am not sure of the cost comparison.  For my stucco installation, it was ICF, the 2 layers of paper and the lath were installed directly to the ICF.  My stucco process was all like normal stick built from what I could tell, so I am not sure why it would be cheaper.

Most stucco crews have no clue on how to do a stucco application on an ICF wall so they approach it as they would a wood frame wall. There was absolutely no reason to install 2 layers of building tar/paper on an ICF wall, that was a waste of labor and money. One could have simply installed the stucco directly onto the exterior EPS. If they used oil based building paper they inevitably damaged some portions of your EPS because petroleum based products and EPS don't mix. The oil/petroleum leaching off of the tar/building paper will literally melt your EPS.

Once again, the problems stems on the crews not knowing ICF and using the same exact install methods as they do on wood frame walls.

Posted By Lbear on 30 Jun 2014 12:47 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 29 Jun 2014 10:34 PM

I don't know how much most things cost.  I only know that I was up-charged $4200 for the super smooth stucco finish.

I am not sure of the cost comparison.  For my stucco installation, it was ICF, the 2 layers of paper and the lath were installed directly to the ICF.  My stucco process was all like normal stick built from what I could tell, so I am not sure why it would be cheaper.

Most stucco crews have no clue on how to do a stucco application on an ICF wall so they approach it as they would a wood frame wall. There was absolutely no reason to install 2 layers of building tar/paper on an ICF wall, that was a waste of labor and money. One could have simply installed the stucco directly onto the exterior EPS. If they used oil based building paper they inevitably damaged some portions of your EPS because petroleum based products and EPS don't mix. The oil/petroleum leaching off of the tar/building paper will literally melt your EPS.

Once again, the problems stems on the crews not knowing ICF and using the same exact install methods as they do on wood frame walls.

my builiding inspector also required two layers of paper.

Posted By Lbear on 30 Jun 2014 12:47 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 29 Jun 2014 10:34 PM

I don't know how much most things cost.  I only know that I was up-charged $4200 for the super smooth stucco finish.

I am not sure of the cost comparison.  For my stucco installation, it was ICF, the 2 layers of paper and the lath were installed directly to the ICF.  My stucco process was all like normal stick built from what I could tell, so I am not sure why it would be cheaper.

Most stucco crews have no clue on how to do a stucco application on an ICF wall so they approach it as they would a wood frame wall. There was absolutely no reason to install 2 layers of building tar/paper on an ICF wall, that was a waste of labor and money. One could have simply installed the stucco directly onto the exterior EPS. If they used oil based building paper they inevitably damaged some portions of your EPS because petroleum based products and EPS don't mix. The oil/petroleum leaching off of the tar/building paper will literally melt your EPS.

Once again, the problems stems on the crews not knowing ICF and using the same exact install methods as they do on wood frame walls.

Also, can you show me a reference for the statement petroleum based products and eps don't mix.

Thank you all for your feedback. I appreciate it a lot. @ba_icf: You have big windows. Hope you'll enjoy your windows. We will have quite some more, but not as big per window as yours. I will do more research on stucco. The window installation price is a lot, wow. Is that a common price? What do others pay for their installation of windows/doors? Thanks.

Posted By ba_icf on 30 Jun 2014 01:42 PM
Also, can you show me a reference for the statement petroleum based products and eps don't mix.

EPS is subject to attack by petroleum based solvents. This video shows what happens to polystyrene and a simple petroleum based nail polish remover:

EPS DISSOLVING VIDEO

You can do the same thing by taking some motor oil and pouring it on the ICF/EPS wall and watch it dissolve away the EPS. Of course don't do this on your house wall but on a scrap piece of ICF block.

EPS FOAM FACTS

Any membrane that contains asphalt or are petroleum based (tar/building paper) may attack the EPS insulation over time.

Below grade ICF requires a waterproofing membrane but the ICF industry only recommends Butyl based membranes (no asphalt or petroleum).

ICF EPS

As per the ICF industry specs: "Polystyrene foam is subject to deterioration when subjected to petroleum-based solvents. Several single-ply membrane systems contain solvents that will attack EPS. Consult the membrane supplier to determine the compatibility of the membrane and installation adhesives with EPS foam."

Tar paper contains petroleum since most of it is asphalt impregnated and when it leaches it can and will attack the EPS. How much damage can it do? That is only known by how much petroleum will leach from the paper over time and come into contact with the EPS.

What did your ICF installer say? How many ICF homes has he done this way?

Posted By ba_icf on 30 Jun 2014 01:31 PM

my builiding inspector also required two layers of paper.

Sadly most building inspectors don't have a clue what ICF is and what methodology is used in detailing it. A building inspector I talked with had no idea what ICF was or what it stood for. He had no clue what a SIP was either.

Building inspectors deal with conventional building methods 99% of the time. Once they see unconventional methods (ICF, SIPs, SCIPs, etc) they are in the Twilight Zone and basically will revert to what they know and apply wood frame methods to an ICF wall. Just like they were pushing to put WEEP SCREEDS on the bottom of an ICF wall with stucco. There are no rain/air gaps between the exterior EPS and the 6" of concrete. The weep screed wouldn't do anything because water cannot enter and has no where to go between the cured 6" of concrete and the exterior EPS and stucco that it is adhered to.

Two layers of building paper is standard protocol for wood frame homes. I guarantee you that they have no "standard protocol" for ICF walls so the BI reverted back to his protocol for wood frame walls. BI's will not think out of the box. They are a government bureaucracy and that is how they act out in the field. You have BI's that never even heard of a ductless mini-split.

Posted By Rafi on 30 Jun 2014 02:04 PM 
... What do others pay for their installation of windows/doors? Thanks.

I'm in Arkansas, and it cost me $600 to have all of my exterior windows and doors installed in my ICF home.  I paid my framing crew (3 guys) $100/hour and it took them 6 hours to install all of my windows (18 total, mostly 3'x5', 3'x6', and largest was 6'x5') and exterior doors (two 6'x6'8" glass patio doors, three 3'x6'8" entry doors,  and one 5'6"x6'8" front entry door).

Posted By Lbear on 30 Jun 2014 02:49 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 30 Jun 2014 01:42 PM
Also, can you show me a reference for the statement petroleum based products and eps don't mix.

EPS is subject to attack by petroleum based solvents. This video shows what happens to polystyrene and a simple petroleum based nail polish remover:

EPS DISSOLVING VIDEO

You can do the same thing by taking some motor oil and pouring it on the ICF/EPS wall and watch it dissolve away the EPS. Of course don't do this on your house wall but on a scrap piece of ICF block.

EPS FOAM FACTS

Any membrane that contains asphalt or are petroleum based (tar/building paper) may attack the EPS insulation over time.

Below grade ICF requires a waterproofing membrane but the ICF industry only recommends Butyl based membranes (no asphalt or petroleum).

ICF EPS

As per the ICF industry specs: "Polystyrene foam is subject to deterioration when subjected to petroleum-based solvents. Several single-ply membrane systems contain solvents that will attack EPS. Consult the membrane supplier to determine the compatibility of the membrane and installation adhesives with EPS foam."

Tar paper contains petroleum since most of it is asphalt impregnated and when it leaches it can and will attack the EPS. How much damage can it do? That is only known by how much petroleum will leach from the paper over time and come into contact with the EPS.

What did your ICF installer say? How many ICF homes has he done this way?

You are comparing solvents to any petroleum based product.  I don't think it is relevant.  Also, the other sites say "may".   Can you show some kind of real testing, and not just a single line statement CMA of a vendor?  Where is this ICF industry spec?  It looks like a statement from roofing insulation.  I don't see any real scientific tests, just maybe.

I didn't ask him.  I am not sure, but there are a couple of other homes, and if the foam was deteriorating, then I presume the stucco would look bad with a void beneath it, and I don't see it.

Posted By Lbear on 30 Jun 2014 02:54 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 30 Jun 2014 01:31 PM

my builiding inspector also required two layers of paper.

Sadly most building inspectors don't have a clue what ICF is and what methodology is used in detailing it. A building inspector I talked with had no idea what ICF was or what it stood for. He had no clue what a SIP was either.

Building inspectors deal with conventional building methods 99% of the time. Once they see unconventional methods (ICF, SIPs, SCIPs, etc) they are in the Twilight Zone and basically will revert to what they know and apply wood frame methods to an ICF wall. Just like they were pushing to put WEEP SCREEDS on the bottom of an ICF wall with stucco. There are no rain/air gaps between the exterior EPS and the 6" of concrete. The weep screed wouldn't do anything because water cannot enter and has no where to go between the cured 6" of concrete and the exterior EPS and stucco that it is adhered to.

Two layers of building paper is standard protocol for wood frame homes. I guarantee you that they have no "standard protocol" for ICF walls so the BI reverted back to his protocol for wood frame walls. BI's will not think out of the box. They are a government bureaucracy and that is how they act out in the field. You have BI's that never even heard of a ductless mini-split.

Based on your many statements on this forum, you have much more time or you live in an area where you can circumvent the BI.  I don't have that luxury.  If the BI doesn't approve it, then we can't move forward, and I can't move in.

Posted By Rafi on 30 Jun 2014 02:04 PM
Thank you all for your feedback. I appreciate it a lot. @ba_icf: You have big windows. Hope you'll enjoy your windows. We will have quite some more, but not as big per window as yours. I will do more research on stucco. The window installation price is a lot, wow. Is that a common price? What do others pay for their installation of windows/doors? Thanks.

I think I was at a big disadvantage at the time.  I mistakenly assumed that the window vendors preferred installer would give me a fair price.  He had been on my worksite numerous times, and he was describing all of the things that we needed to do, and he made suggestions to my builders to make the window install easier.  I kept asking my window vendor and the installer for a quote, but they both assured me that it would be fair, and the window vendor quoted me some other homes that his installer did, and the price that he charged.

It was still high, but I was okay with it.  When the final quote came in, it was super high, and then I had to scramble.  I wasn't comfortable using any vendor off the street.   I wanted someone familiar with the windows or my own builder.  In the end, I used my own builder.  He referenced his price as a couple thousand less than the second installer.  The second installer also used the first installer as a reference price.

The big problem is that I paid quite a bit for the windows, and so I wanted to be sure of my install.  My own builder is on the hook if things go bad, but if I used some cheap window installer, I might not have any recourse.  I am sure you can get it installed for much less than me.

Which brand of tilt/turn are you planning to use?

Posted By arkie6 on 30 Jun 2014 03:08 PM

Posted By Rafi on 30 Jun 2014 02:04 PM 
... What do others pay for their installation of windows/doors? Thanks.

I'm in Arkansas, and it cost me $600 to have all of my exterior windows and doors installed in my ICF home.  I paid my framing crew (3 guys) $100/hour and it took them 6 hours to install all of my windows (18 total, mostly 3'x5', 3'x6', and largest was 6'x5') and exterior doors (two 6'x6'8" glass patio doors, three 3'x6'8" entry doors,  and one 5'6"x6'8" front entry door).

I know that everything is much more expensive where I live.  The problem is when I searched for a builder, the prices for the cheapest guy is still way more expensive than what is considered normal in other parts of the country.  The cheapest guy also uses crappy materials and cheap labor.

Did your windows have flanges?