Posted By ba_icf on 30 Jun 2014 03:56 PM

Posted By Rafi on 30 Jun 2014 02:04 PM
Thank you all for your feedback. I appreciate it a lot. @ba_icf: You have big windows. Hope you'll enjoy your windows. We will have quite some more, but not as big per window as yours. I will do more research on stucco. The window installation price is a lot, wow. Is that a common price? What do others pay for their installation of windows/doors? Thanks.

I think I was at a big disadvantage at the time.  I mistakenly assumed that the window vendors preferred installer would give me a fair price.  He had been on my worksite numerous times, and he was describing all of the things that we needed to do, and he made suggestions to my builders to make the window install easier.  I kept asking my window vendor and the installer for a quote, but they both assured me that it would be fair, and the window vendor quoted me some other homes that his installer did, and the price that he charged.

It was still high, but I was okay with it.  When the final quote came in, it was super high, and then I had to scramble.  I wasn't comfortable using any vendor off the street.   I wanted someone familiar with the windows or my own builder.  In the end, I used my own builder.  He referenced his price as a couple thousand less than the second installer.  The second installer also used the first installer as a reference price.

The big problem is that I paid quite a bit for the windows, and so I wanted to be sure of my install.  My own builder is on the hook if things go bad, but if I used some cheap window installer, I might not have any recourse.  I am sure you can get it installed for much less than me.

Which brand of tilt/turn are you planning to use?

Wow, I understand what you went through and why you've chose your builder instead of some installer from the street. I know these windows cost quite a lot, but good windows are so important if you want to keep your ICF most possible energy efficient. I know we did and will do many mistakes as first Owner Builders, and that we will be so much smarter once the project is finished. Our windows are also from Europe, the frames will be PVC but outside with Aluminum clad while the doors will be all Aluminum, German brand Schueco. After long discussions with the manufacturer about the best glass for our climate we chose Unisun triple-glass. We are in Arizona and the sun is brutal, so we needed the Alumnium clad and a low Solar Heat Gain Coefficient (SHGC). This all made it about 30% more expensive compared to PVC with dual glass as we planned to have them first but we expect to have them for a looooong time. To the guy from Arkansas: That is a pretty damn good deal you've got.

Did your windows have flanges?



I have no idea what flanges mean. Sorry.

Posted By ba_icf on 30 Jun 2014 03:59 PM

Posted By arkie6 on 30 Jun 2014 03:08 PM

Posted By Rafi on 30 Jun 2014 02:04 PM 
... What do others pay for their installation of windows/doors? Thanks.

I'm in Arkansas and it cost me $600 to have all of my exterior windows and doors installed in my ICF home.  I paid my framing crew (3 guys) $100/hour and it took them 6 hours to install all of my windows (18 total, mostly 3'x5', 3'x6', and largest was 6'x5') and exterior doors (two 6'x6'8" glass patio doors, three 3'x6'8" entry doors,  and one 5'6"x6'8" front entry door).

I know that everything is much more expensive where I live.  The problem is when I searched for a builder, the prices for the cheapest guy is still way more expensive than what is considered normal in other parts of the country.  The cheapest guy also uses crappy materials and cheap labor.

Did your windows have flanges?

Yes, my windows had flanges.  I used Marvin Integrity All-Ultrex (fiberglass framed) windows.

Posted By Rafi on 30 Jun 2014 06:26 PM


Did your windows have flanges?

I have no idea what flanges mean. Sorry.

Sorry, I was asking Arkie to understand his type of window install, but a flange is usually a metal attachment to the window which makes it easier to install windows flush to the outside.  It is basically a thin piece of metal in the plane of the wall which is used to nail/screw the window to the house.

My windows didn't come with a flange, so this allows you to install the window anywhere in the opening.  We chose to install our windows close to the inside with a 1" drywall return to the frame.

Posted By Rafi on 30 Jun 2014 06:21 PM

Posted By ba_icf on 30 Jun 2014 03:56 PM

Posted By Rafi on 30 Jun 2014 02:04 PM
Thank you all for your feedback. I appreciate it a lot. @ba_icf: You have big windows. Hope you'll enjoy your windows. We will have quite some more, but not as big per window as yours. I will do more research on stucco. The window installation price is a lot, wow. Is that a common price? What do others pay for their installation of windows/doors? Thanks.

I think I was at a big disadvantage at the time.  I mistakenly assumed that the window vendors preferred installer would give me a fair price.  He had been on my worksite numerous times, and he was describing all of the things that we needed to do, and he made suggestions to my builders to make the window install easier.  I kept asking my window vendor and the installer for a quote, but they both assured me that it would be fair, and the window vendor quoted me some other homes that his installer did, and the price that he charged.

It was still high, but I was okay with it.  When the final quote came in, it was super high, and then I had to scramble.  I wasn't comfortable using any vendor off the street.   I wanted someone familiar with the windows or my own builder.  In the end, I used my own builder.  He referenced his price as a couple thousand less than the second installer.  The second installer also used the first installer as a reference price.

The big problem is that I paid quite a bit for the windows, and so I wanted to be sure of my install.  My own builder is on the hook if things go bad, but if I used some cheap window installer, I might not have any recourse.  I am sure you can get it installed for much less than me.

Which brand of tilt/turn are you planning to use?

Wow, I understand what you went through and why you've chose your builder instead of some installer from the street. I know these windows cost quite a lot, but good windows are so important if you want to keep your ICF most possible energy efficient. I know we did and will do many mistakes as first Owner Builders, and that we will be so much smarter once the project is finished. Our windows are also from Europe, the frames will be PVC but outside with Aluminum clad while the doors will be all Aluminum, German brand Schueco. After long discussions with the manufacturer about the best glass for our climate we chose Unisun triple-glass. We are in Arizona and the sun is brutal, so we needed the Alumnium clad and a low Solar Heat Gain Coefficient (SHGC). This all made it about 30% more expensive compared to PVC with dual glass as we planned to have them first but we expect to have them for a looooong time. To the guy from Arkansas: That is a pretty damn good deal you've got.

Everything except my entry door was made from aluminum.  My cost was quite a bit higher than it needed to be because my window vendor likes laminated glass, and he convinced me I should like it, too.  Anywhere, the code required tempered, I used laminated.  In two places where it wasn't required, I also used laminated, because it is next to my folding door, and it goes down to 18".  I probably should've made them go to the floor.

another big expense on my windows is retractable screens.  for every operational window, i have a retractable screen.  for the folding door and the patio door that goes to living space, i also have retractable screens.   the company builds extension jamb that is all the same material and color, so it blends seamlessly with the window, and you really can't tell the difference except that the depth of the window is less from the outside.

presumably, you are using intus, and when they quoted the schueco windows, they ended up being more than my aluminum, and it was also easier dealing with a local dealer because we did quite a bit of custom work.

i just have double pane windows because I am in silicon valley, and our climate isn't that severe.

presumably, you are using intus, and when they quoted the schueco windows, they ended up being more than my aluminum, and it was also easier dealing with a local dealer because we did quite a bit of custom work.

[presumably, you are using intus]

Nope, Inles, manufacturer from my home country.

[presumably, you are using intus]

Nope, Inles, manufacturer from my home country.

looks good.  i used cometal.

it looks like inles makes aluminum doors, why did you go with schueco for your doors and inles for your windows?

You are comparing solvents to any petroleum based product. I don't think it is relevant.

Um, it's not magic. Chemistry is chemistry. Petroleum based products definitely attack EPS, particularly in situations where the product can outgas and the gases are confined with the EPS. Demanding proof through some sort of specific test is silliness.

Posted By ba_icf on 01 Jul 2014 02:35 AM
it looks like inles makes aluminum doors, why did you go with schueco for your doors and inles for your windows?

All doors and windows are manufactured and sold by Inles to us, but they use Schueco frames for their production and I believe the glass comes from Austria. As much as I understand, their manufactory is not only but mainly producing for the German market. To choose the right glass for us was quite a journey for them and us.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Jul 2014 09:07 AM

You are comparing solvents to any petroleum based product. I don't think it is relevant.

Um, it's not magic. Chemistry is chemistry. Petroleum based products definitely attack EPS, particularly in situations where the product can outgas and the gases are confined with the EPS. Demanding proof through some sort of specific test is silliness.

It is relevant and ICFHybrid stated it bluntly and truthfully. Contact Nudura, Fox or any ICF manufacturer and ask them if petroleum based products will attack/damage EPS and they will respond with a 100% resounding YES. No ICF manufacturer will warranty the ICF if it has been in contact with a petroleum based product, whether that be some type of adhesive or house membrane that contains petroleum based products.

How did they attach the stucco? You have the EPS face of the ICF, where did they add the 2 layers of building paper and where did they attach the stucco to?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Jul 2014 09:07 AM

You are comparing solvents to any petroleum based product. I don't think it is relevant.

Um, it's not magic. Chemistry is chemistry. Petroleum based products definitely attack EPS, particularly in situations where the product can outgas and the gases are confined with the EPS. Demanding proof through some sort of specific test is silliness.

what does that even mean?  we are talking about specific products in a specific situation.  does asphalt impregnated paper damage ICF foam?  we aren't talking about generalities.  why do the ICF manufacturers not forbid stucco paper if it will definitely cause issues?   many people are using stucco paper on ICF, and if the rhetoric is true, then it is a huge liability.  other threads have stated that they always see the use of stucco paper on ICF, so it is probably wide spread.

making statements with no proof is silly.  your statements sound just like religious people talking about god.  demanding proof well is silly.

Posted By Lbear on 01 Jul 2014 12:07 PM

Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Jul 2014 09:07 AM

You are comparing solvents to any petroleum based product. I don't think it is relevant.

Um, it's not magic. Chemistry is chemistry. Petroleum based products definitely attack EPS, particularly in situations where the product can outgas and the gases are confined with the EPS. Demanding proof through some sort of specific test is silliness.

It is relevant and ICFHybrid stated it bluntly and truthfully. Contact Nudura, Fox or any ICF manufacturer and ask them if petroleum based products will attack/damage EPS and they will respond with a 100% resounding YES. No ICF manufacturer will warranty the ICF if it has been in contact with a petroleum based product, whether that be some type of adhesive or house membrane that contains petroleum based products.

icfhybrid stated nothing. just "I said it, so it must be true". 

you state the above as fact.  point me to the manufacturer's website where that is stated.  I am sure all of the ICF manufacturers love that you speak for them.

Posted By Rafi on 01 Jul 2014 10:42 AM

Posted By ba_icf on 01 Jul 2014 02:35 AM
it looks like inles makes aluminum doors, why did you go with schueco for your doors and inles for your windows?

All doors and windows are manufactured and sold by Inles to us, but they use Schueco frames for their production and I believe the glass comes from Austria. As much as I understand, their manufactory is not only but mainly producing for the German market. To choose the right glass for us was quite a journey for them and us.

sounds good.  i am always interested in how people choose certain products, and how they choose different door and window vendors.  when i was looking, it was hard to get any consistency, so I picked a store, and stayed within the brands that they carried.  i went with a traditional looking door, so I had to move away from cometal, because they only make metal type of doors, i.e. steel and aluminum.

Posted By Lbear on 01 Jul 2014 12:09 PM
How did they attach the stucco? You have the EPS face of the ICF, where did they add the 2 layers of building paper and where did they attach the stucco to?

i don't understand this question.  if you are criticizing the use of a material, shouldn't you know the buildup?

I don't understand why people ask questions and then get upset when they are told the answer.


There was a discussion about someones ICF/EPS was getting melted away due to asphalt coming into contact with it. It was beyond a doubt that the petroleum in the asphalt caused the damage.

GBT Thread - How Asphalt Ate My ICF

Nudura reps stated, "of course it would melt it"


From WikiPedia

• Vulnerable to petroleum solvents: If geofoam (EPS) comes in contact with a petroleum solvent, it will immediately turn into a glue-type substance, making it unable to support any load.

Look, I'm sorry that it's not the answer you are looking for and I would also be mad but your anger should not be directed at forum members, it's your ICF contractor that you should be angry at. Direct your anger at him.

There is absolutely no reason to add two layers of tar/building paper on an ICF wall when doing stucco. The use of felt paper under stucco comes from a code that was written many years ago by the Lath & Plaster Assoc. for AIA. During that time it was written for primary construction method which was wood frame. Your contractor wasted time and money in doing so and put your EPS in danger of damage from the petroleum leaching off of the tar paper.

If he wanted to waterproof below grade ICF, then a water-based peel & stick membrane can be used. Not a petroleum based membrane.

Posted By Lbear on 01 Jul 2014 11:44 PM


....If he wanted to waterproof below grade ICF, then a water-based peel & stick membrane can be used. Not a petroleum based membrane.

Where does one find "a water-based peel & stick membrane"?  Virtually all of the peel-and-stick membranes that I have seen are based on rubberized asphalt.  That is what I used for my ICF basement and have had no issues.  The asphalt based mastic that is used around the edges of the membrane does tend to cause a small amount of melting of the foam until the volatile components in the mastic evaporate then the foam melting stops.  This is a good thing in my opinion since the waterproofing membrane, mastic, and foam are fused together at the edges.

I can't see where asphalt based building paper would have any measurable effect on the foam since there are few if any volatile components remaining in the building paper that would attack the foam.