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Why does geo cost sooo much.....

Last Post 30 Dec 2011 11:16 PM by robinnc. 133 Replies.

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SkyHeating User is Offline

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25 Nov 2011 01:12 PM
Posted By arkie6 on 25 Nov 2011 12:44 PM Yeah, well drilling is generally $5.00 - $7.50 per foot around here in central Arkansas plus the cost of casing if needed (not generally needed with geothermal). Assuming 200' of well per ton of HVAC, you are looking at around $1000 to $1500 per ton for well drilling costs. Send some of those drillers my way. I think Portland OR has the highest costs that I know of. We just don't do it so our economies of scale are terrible. There are a few in $12 per foot range but are scared of drilling for ground source heat pumps and from what I have heard working with them isn't worth the cost savings. We are starting to get lower cost horizontal bore companies here so that may be the way we go to lots not large enough for a horizontal trench.

Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/

Palace Geothermal User is Offline

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25 Nov 2011 02:54 PM
What are the drilling conditions like in Portland? What is the lithology?

Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system

toddm

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25 Nov 2011 02:56 PM
My latest two examples of wishful pricing: For a fire sprinkler system: $5.400, $4,700 and $2,800. The high bidder insisted that I would never get the design approved, when in fact it had already been approved, and by someone who knew a great deal more than my frustrated bidder. (Fema's national emergency center and the natl fire academy are five miles down the road.) For a steam shower enclosure: $1,250, $1,080 and $625. The high and low bid the same manufacturer. Can't blame 'em for trying. The high bids were probably going rates in 2007. That said there has to be two or more legit geo contractors in your area for reality to sink in, and it doesn't help that the govt is distorting the market.

Palace Geothermal User is Offline

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25 Nov 2011 03:26 PM
Posted By toddm on 25 Nov 2011 02:56 PM My latest two examples of wishful pricing That said there has to be two or more legit geo contractors in your area for reality to sink in, and it doesn't help that the govt is distorting the market. Rob...I think this is as good as answer as any.

Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system

robinnc

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25 Nov 2011 10:16 PM
Posted By geodean on 25 Nov 2011 03:26 PM Posted By toddm on 25 Nov 2011 02:56 PM My latest two examples of wishful pricing That said there has to be two or more legit geo contractors in your area for reality to sink in, and it doesn't help that the govt is distorting the market. Rob...I think this is as good as answer as any. I agree. I have never cked on geo locally, only what I've read here over the last 4 yrs. The company that installed the HVAC on my spec house and my personal house is one of the largest in this area and they don't do geo.

robinnc

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25 Nov 2011 10:26 PM
Posted By geodean on 25 Nov 2011 10:25 AM Posted By robinnc on 24 Nov 2011 11:28 PM .... Can anybody answer the questions I posted? Rob, how can we answer questions about a bid that we know nothing about? Ductwork the same with geo as air to air? approx difference in prices of a 4 ton geo unit vs 4 ton air to air(the highest SEER they offer). Just the unit itself. The 4 web sites I listed. Those brands...good...bad? Are alot of the parts in geo units the same....parts came from same supplier? How many are just rebranded under another name?

Palace Geothermal User is Offline

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25 Nov 2011 11:13 PM
Posted By robinnc on 25 Nov 2011 10:26 PM Ductwork the same with geo as air to air? probably about the dame approx difference in prices of a 4 ton geo unit vs 4 ton air to air(the highest SEER they offer). Just the unit itself. I have never bought a air to air so I can't say The 4 web sites I listed. Those brands...good...bad?Some of the brands are bottom feeders, none of them come with a warranty Are alot of the parts in geo units the same....parts came from same supplier? How many are just rebranded under another name?There are 4 or 5 rebranded units out there

Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system

waterpirate User is Offline

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25 Nov 2011 11:24 PM
Here is another way of looking at your "percieved issue with pricing". Cranky people get crankier and post away on boards about pricing that they feel is to expensive, who are we to say? Happy geo customers that get real value from their contractors quietly go about the business of enjoying their systems and do not post. Eric

Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!

SkyHeating User is Offline

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26 Nov 2011 01:16 AM
Posted By geodean on 25 Nov 2011 02:54 PM What are the drilling conditions like in Portland? What is the lithology? I wish I could tell you, I have never done a vertical bore job, those were just the prices i had quoted to me when I had a customer ask about doing it. I talked to a couple of the other geo guys that had done a vertical and they said yeah, thats the going rate and looked at my pricing and said thats where they would be on the same job so... I wish i had a chance to do more but the costs are just so high it has not made sense to be able to do one yet. I know we have a lot of basalt in random areas from the volcanoes in the area(only one is active, mt st helens)

Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/

robinnc

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27 Nov 2011 10:51 PM
Posted By geodean on 25 Nov 2011 11:13 PM Posted By robinnc on 25 Nov 2011 10:26 PM Ductwork the same with geo as air to air? probably about the dame approx difference in prices of a 4 ton geo unit vs 4 ton air to air(the highest SEER they offer). Just the unit itself. I have never bought a air to air so I can't say The 4 web sites I listed. Those brands...good...bad?Some of the brands are bottom feeders, none of them come with a warranty Are alot of the parts in geo units the same....parts came from same supplier? How many are just rebranded under another name?There are 4 or 5 rebranded units out there They do have warranties. As you mentioned that several are rebranded. Are alot of the parts in geo made from the same suppliers? A very good example for contractors quoting outragous pricing is in a current thread that I know you are aware of. He ONLY has a 2400sf house but the lowest bids he has gotten is between 40-49 grand WITHOUT the piping put in the ground!!!!!! That's insane to me! I did find this on the air to air heat pump pricing. <!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE AR-SA http://www.qualitysmith.com/request/articles/articles-hvac/trane-heat-pump-prices/ It still added that junk in front of what I copied and pasted. I think it was you geodean that showed me what to do to prevent this but when I 'copy and paste' it doesn't give me that option.... Can anyone tell me how to 'copy and paste' and not have this happen? I usually copy the web add. to a Word file and then 'copy and paste' here and it always adds that junk in front of it..

arkie6

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Posts:1453

27 Nov 2011 11:10 PM
Posted By robinnc on 27 Nov 2011 10:51 PM It still added that junk in front of what I copied and pasted. I think it was you geodean that showed me what to do to prevent this but when I 'copy and paste' it doesn't give me that option.... Can anyone tell me how to 'copy and paste' and not have this happen? I usually copy the web add. to a Word file and then 'copy and paste' here and it always adds that junk in front of it.. Don't past it into Word. Word adds formatting info that this software doesn't recognize. If you must paste it into some other word processing program before posting here, paste it into Notepad. Notepad doesn't add all of the junk.

joe.ami

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28 Nov 2011 09:03 AM
My latest two examples of wishful pricing: For a fire sprinkler system: $5.400, $4,700 and $2,800. The high bidder insisted that I would never get the design approved, when in fact it had already been approved, and by someone who knew a great deal more than my frustrated bidder. (Fema's national emergency center and the natl fire academy are five miles down the road.) For a steam shower enclosure: $1,250, $1,080 and $625. The high and low bid the same manufacturer. Can't blame 'em for trying. The high bids were probably going rates in 2007. I'm sorry, what does any of this have to do with the price of tea, or geo in China or anywhere else? Bandying about numbers with no context or relation (in a thread that suggests geo gouging) is ridiculous. Regarding 2007, my job costs have risen my margin has not, are you suggesting people should make substantially less than 4 years ago? I will agree with you if you are suggesting that someone whose price has dropped since 2007 was probably gouging then. You also suggest government impact on pricing, are you suggesting there are subsidies for steam shower enclosures as well? You're adding 2 and 2 and getting 10. If you care to share 3 geo bids you have recieved where one of the 3 is half the cost of the high, and all of the features offered are the same, that might connect with the topic at hand. Most folks will find that bids they recieve are within 10% to 20% of one another due to impacts in overhead and marketing strategies.

Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort!

joe.ami

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28 Nov 2011 09:09 AM
Posted By robinnc on 25 Nov 2011 10:16 PM I agree. I have never cked on geo locally, only what I've read here over the last 4 yrs. The company that installed the HVAC on my spec house and my personal house is one of the largest in this area and they don't do geo. Is it reasonable to compare ASHP prices in your area to geo elsewhere? You are suggesting geo costs soooooo much, but haven't priced it? Really?

Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort!

joe.ami

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28 Nov 2011 09:45 AM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 25 Nov 2011 01:33 AM Or did "several" drop the price 5 figures? Quite a few actually. When they found that they weren't competitive, they wanted another shot at it. Which, we gave them. From "several" to "quite a few". It is good that you use such quantifiable data in a debate. I gave 2 examples of people who didn't pay enough in just the last month. You offer fuzzy quantities of "overpricing". When folks ask me to do a job for less, I will revisit the job parameters and compare to their other bids if they like to show what I am offering that others are not. Some of the items are tangible (i.e. buffer tank) some are less so (i.e. excavator, mechanic, electrician all with more than 20 or 30 years of experience). Sometimes they will elect not to purchase some of the features I offer and the bid will go down (typically a few hundred dollars though occassionally over $1,000). My margin on sale/install vs time invested is hands down higher on a $2,500 furnace than a $20,000 geo system. My exposure is also considerably less with a furace. Heck my permit fees can vary by more than $1,000. Just to add more verifiable content, I have had 3 geo bids in the last thirty days under $10,000. Mind you they all currently have geo, but to answer the question of how they compare vs a high end furnace and ASHP, if you take everything else out of the equation (loops, DSH, buffer tank) they are pretty close in my AO. Do some folks charge less?.........well some do less, so I hope they wouldn't charge as much as I do.

Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort!

ICFHybrid

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28 Nov 2011 10:06 AM
You're adding 2 and 2 and getting 10. If you care to share 3 geo bids you have recieved where one of the 3 is half the cost of the high, and all of the features offered are the same, You have to see near identical bids where one is TWICE the cost of the other before you can entertain the possibility of price gouging? Really? That's pretty amusing. You act like it doesn't happen or that, somehow, HVAC contractors in particular are innocent. Isn't it bad enough that installers play games with the 30% tax credit? If I'm allergic to working on Mondays and Fridays and I want to slip the little old nest-eggers a 40% jab on labor to cover my indolent lifestyle are you going to call that "overhead"? Ha ha.

joe.ami

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28 Nov 2011 11:00 AM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 28 Nov 2011 10:06 AM 1) You have to see near identical bids where one is TWICE the cost of the other before you can entertain the possibility of price gouging? Really? That's pretty amusing. 2) You act like it doesn't happen or that, somehow, HVAC contractors in particular are innocent. 3) Isn't it bad enough that installers play games with the 30% tax credit? 4) If I'm allergic to working on Mondays and Fridays and I want to slip the little old nest-eggers a 40% jab on labor to cover my indolent lifestyle are you going to call that "overhead"? Ha ha. 1) Actually know I don't have to see bids twice the size of a low bidder to suggest gouging, but examples cited of "wishful bidding" in a discussion of the high price of geo, both had low bids nearly half the high or less. Since the original topic is about geo prices I asked for examples in geo. Or are we to believe there is a connection between steam showers and geo? 2) Of course it happens and of course there are examples of geo contractors gouging, but again the premise to this thread is based on why geo costs "sooooooo" much. There are very few examples offered, OP hasn't even priced them in his town. Most are unsubstantiated and unqualified as to features, and of course the examples I took issue with here have nothing to do with geo. Meanwhile I have quoted real world examples of systems that do not cost the fantastic prices some are accepting at face value of proof that geo costs too much. A satisfied consumer also offered his/her opinion and price; it was all but ignored. 3) Again accusation without substantiation. Not even sure what it means. 4) Sorry to hear about your allergy.........actually on an average job 40% jab on my labor would be in the hundreds not thousands of dollars. On an average job 40% jab on the total difference between subs' pay+ material costs (pre overhead and my labor) Would often not equate to thousands, though it could exceed easily exceed $1,000. As always ICF when called to substantiate your assertions, you elect instead to change the argument. You accuse me of pretending something doesn't exist, of course it does. I will however always try to put the various assertions in context, and suggest it is the exception not the norm. Why does that suggestion bring up so much ire in you? Are you saying their are more crooked than straight contractors? If so please numerically substantiate it and add geographical context just as I have qualified and supported my claims. This is a geo forum and I am pro geo, but that has never stopped me from suggesting someone shop more if I think the price is too high or the design poor, nor has it stopped me from suggesting someone might be better off with a different technology.

Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort!

ICFHybrid

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28 Nov 2011 12:00 PM
As always ICF when called to substantiate your assertions, you elect instead to change the argument. Actually, Joe, that's what you do. And I quote "If you care to share 3 geo bids you have recieved where one of the 3 is half the cost of the high...". Other strategies you have used involve vague references to overhead, COB in different locales, demands for "proof" (notarized and certified, anyone? HA HA) and now, word games about 40% of "your" labor being only in the hundreds of dollars. This thread is about the apparent high cost of geo. It comes up time and again here and elsewhere, and I understand why after I went to get bids on geothermal systems. Between the differences in climate and construction, homeowners just don't know how to buy something they buy less regularly than a vehicle, particularly if it is something that hasn't been popularized too long. That makes the field ripe for "gouging". Why is that so hard to understand and accept, particularly for a businessman? I appreciate your very experienced contributions to so many things here, but your running interference for questionable business practices weighs the other side down.....

waterpirate User is Offline

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28 Nov 2011 03:13 PM
Oh pulease?....... The start of any purchase is research and understanding. If the people you claim are pissed including you did their research and due dillagence you would make a educated purchase. It all starts with education, of both the customer and the contractor. If either one of those is a fool they will soon part with their money. For the record when I inquired in my kneck of the woods about ICF the three quotes I got were outragious compared to the prices I found on the internet for materials. ICF must be a rip off is the conclusion I reached using your logic. The real reason for the cost was no one in my kneck of the woods was educated about it or comfortable with it, thus danger money was applied to the quote to cover their a$$. I suspect that is the problem with geo in your kneck of the woods. For that I am sorry, the rest is just wine and cheese. Eric

Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!

ICFHybrid

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28 Nov 2011 08:26 PM
thus danger money was applied Ha Ha. "Danger money". I like that - I've never heard it before. I guess when everything is all over and the "danger money" is not used, it's just handed back to the homeowner as a sort of unexpected windfall? Sounds like what you want to say is "Buyer beware". I guess that's nothing new; it has been around a couple thousand years. It's a shame, though. I think a lot of people, particularly oldsters, come from a time when you could count on your neighbors to be fair with you and those looking to do something else were the exception. I suspect that is the problem with geo in your kneck of the woods I don't live in the woods and the most egregious offender claimed that they had something like 70 or 90 systems built. You'd think they would have figured it out by then, huh?