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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 02 Sep 2009 09:49 PM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 09/02/2009 7:28 PM
... Next wednesday we are going to change the four and five ton compressors. With a DX system, is there some way to affirmatively diagnos that it's the compressor and not the DX heat exchanger? Or do you have to go to the extensive effort / expense of chaning out the compressors to ascertain if it's the DX heat exchangers or not? Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 03 Sep 2009 07:50 AM |
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Bummer to have to replace compressors Brian. I look forward to hearing the results. You're lucky that you have a customer who appreciates your efforts or this would be twice the PITA (pain in the.....).
I really feel bad for you guys on this one and would swing by if I thought I could do any good.
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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| 03 Sep 2009 08:36 AM |
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Given the pressure and temperature readings Mike and I feel the earth loop and air coils are good. I all ready replaced the air coils. My mistake on that one. The thing that stands out to me is the high amp draw. I have many other units in the field that only draw half the amps. So that is why we are doing the heart transplants. Drao has been great to work with. They beleive in the DX technolgy and just want their system to work as advertised. Thanks again to everyone. This is a great site.
Brian |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 03 Sep 2009 08:58 AM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 09/03/2009 8:36 AM
... we are doing the heart transplants.
Good luck! Look forward to seeing the results next Wed. or Thur.
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 03 Sep 2009 09:08 AM |
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Hi everyone,
Thanks to all of of you for your helpful suggestions and input. I truly appreciate it that everybody is trying to help take care of my problem. Brian has been truly wonderful to work with and is genuinely interested in correcting the problem. We are hoping that " the heart transplant" ie compressors on the 4 ton and 5 ton units will take care of the problem. If that takes care of the matter, it will make us very happy. As Brian states, I truly believe in the technology of the system and just need it to work as advertised. Further, I am not averse to suggestions on how to make my home " hole " free after "the elephant in the room" has left. |
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JackH
New Member
Posts:37
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| 03 Sep 2009 09:14 AM |
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Yes, Good Luck!
I'm sure it has been a long, drawn out ordeal for drao and Brian, but it's Brian's commit to the customer, along with Mike's and Earthlinked to try and solve the problem. Hope it does. looks like it will.
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geonomics
New Member
Posts:5
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| 03 Sep 2009 11:56 AM |
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Haven't looked through all 7 pages yet..and not sure if original poster is still checking this link, but I didn't see anyone comment on the loop sizes...although the contractor went and dug up the loops to check for problems, seems to me he missed the real problem which was not enough loop!
You said 11 x 50 ft. loops for a 8,600 sq. ft. home...that just boggles my mind. 550 ft. of bore for that size of a home is well short of a considerable amount. Let's think about this...just because DX systems use copper loops (enhanced heat transfer) does not mean less ground is needed as a heat source/heat sink. In fact, one should almost use MORE ground..this is because the copper loops are dissipating/capturing heat to/from the ground at such a faster rate. Although ground conditions vary, no soil has high enough thermal conductivity to keep up with such transfer. What I think you have is a problem with the entering water temp (EWT). With such a small loop and such a large heating load, the loops are capturing all the heat from the ground and all the while lowering the temperature, and this will get worse over time. Once the refrigerent makes it to the heat pump the temperature may be so low that the whole point of using geothermal has vanished (in MI I would guess it should be somewhere around 27 degrees?) Therefore, the heat pump has to work that much harder (aka use more electricity) to get the building to the desired temperature...and vice versa for cooling mode.
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 03 Sep 2009 12:36 PM |
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Posted By drao on 09/03/2009 9:08 AM
... We are hoping that " the heart transplant" ie compressors on the 4 ton and 5 ton units will take care of the problem.
... I am not averse to suggestions on how to make my home " hole " free after "the elephant in the room" has left. As I said earlier, I hope all goes well and the compressor changeouts will return your 4 and 5 ton units to the efficiency performance like what you're currently getting with your 2 ton unit. I.e., from the data most recently posted, your EER numbers are 8.1 (5 ton), 10 (4 ton) and 19 (2 ton) (assuming a 0.9 PF on the current/voltage measurements). Based on the experience of the person obtaining the raw measurements, and the sophistication of the instruments used to obtain the numbers, I'd venture these EER actuals are very accurate (including actual measurement of the latent portion of total capacity). After the compressors are changed out, hopefully the efficiency performance of your 5 and 4 ton units will be similar to your 2 ton unit, i.e., near or greater than 19. After the EERs are fixed, with respect to making your home 'hole free,' since you do have the ability to track HVAC-only energy consumption, and since you can look up Cooling Degree Days, I suggest you put together a chart showing the KWH versus CDDs. If you have HVAC related consumption that doesn't match up to the CDDs pretty closely, then it may be safe to conclude you've still got work to do with the ducts and/or structure envelope. (For your climate it may be too late to do this because your cooling mode season is over. You may have to thus wait until it's a near-pure heating mode season, and track HDDs. Just make sure you don't include days where there's both HDD and CDD components. My guess is for MI weather you'll have plenty of opportunity to do this tracking for heating.) An example is shown below. But, while I have a pretty solid energy monitoring system, for the example I'm illustrating, it's easily done with the information you already have readily at hand. I.e., you don't need anything further to do the suggested analysis. Hope this helps. Best regards, Bill |
 Attachment: HVAC-KWH-DD.jpg
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 03 Sep 2009 02:02 PM |
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Posted By airhead1164 on 08/24/2009 5:56 PM
Hello everyone. At the request of drao I will offer some input. As stated there are three units. All are on vertical V-1 loops. There is 100' of bore per ton. When originally installed there was some variations in the bore depth. The four and five ton loops are in straight line. This was done because of clearance issues with undergroung utilities. After spending some quality time with the engineer from ETI this was changed. The a coils on the existing furnaces were also upgraded. The four ton now has a five ton coil and the five ton has a 7 1/2 ton coil.
I don't have my notes with me so I can't give numbers right now. My feeling is given the suction and discharge pressures of the units the current draw is too high. I have also done blower door testing on the home and checked the insulation with a FLIR cam. Some problems were found and corrected. There is also duct leakage issues. Unfortunately the duct is buried in a finshed basement ceilling. I was hoping to find an Aeroseal contractor,
but have had no luck. I appreciate any input.
Brian This info is for geonomics. This is not a water based system. It is DX. Also thank you to a0128958 for tips on tracking HDDS and CDDs. I will approach this after the compressor change over. Thanks again. drao |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 09 Sep 2009 09:23 AM |
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Hello everybody!
Here are the meter reads for the last 11 days that my systems were off. Brian and Mike are here this morning, changing compressors on the 4 and 5 ton units. Will get more detail on that soon. I am sure Brian will post data for you to chew on.
2 Ton 4 Ton 5 Ton Main
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08/29/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02687 25
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08/30/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02711 24 |
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08/31/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02734 23 |
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09/01/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02756 22 |
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09/02/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02777 21 |
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09/03/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02802 25 |
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09/04/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02828 26 |
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09/05/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02853 25 |
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09/06/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02875 22 |
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09/07/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02900 25 |
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09/08/09 |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02921 21 | As it may easily be observed my baseline reads are about the same -26kwh or lower. Let's wait and see what the compressor change does. Customers seek out a product based on the service reputation of the company and if the company fails to live up to their expectations with prompt service, BAD NEWS travels fast, much faster than many good words! As they very wisely say, a stitch in time saves nine! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 09 Sep 2009 01:50 PM |
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Posted By drao on 09/09/2009 9:23 AM
As it may easily be observed my baseline reads are ... 26kwh or lower.
I'm impressed that you can run an 8600 sf home at an average of 1 KW over a 24 hour period. The best I can do for a 3400 sf home is 1.7 KW avg over a 24 hour period (40 KWH / day base load).
When you think about it, even if you have gas hot water, there's lighting, home entertainment, computers, UPS units, electric ovens, toasters, telephones, dish washers, vacuums, refrigerators, washing machines, dryers, security system, networking equipment, fax machine, ceiling fans, communications, sprinkler system, hair dryers, etc., which all add up.
I'm impressed!
Good luck today with the compressor replacements.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 09 Sep 2009 09:59 PM |
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I think I posted this before but since the subject of 3400 SF home base loads has arisen I'll share mine (same 3400 SF) near Jax, FL
Phantoms (all the stuff plugged in not doing anything) = 4 kwh /day
Unoccupied (vacationing) house - Phantoms + fridge,chest freezer, driveway floodlight, well pump supplying 2 other rentals, but no HVAC, hot water = 9 kwh / day
Occupied house no HVAC, all hot water (6kwh / day) from electric resistance - this is during spring, fall weeks with no heating or cooling needed = 24 kwh / day
Occupied house Jan or July (moderate to heavy heating / cooling, but nearly all domestic HW from desuper) = 32 kwh / day
I read spikes up to 50 kwh / day when temps dips down into the 20s or up to upper 90s and a few loads of laundry are done, or family shows up and we cook all day.
I'm hoping the newly installed HPWH will drop the spring / fall no HVAC daily use from 24 to 20 or so, without causing undue problems on very cold days.
The last major load needing a better solution is the electric clothes dryer - someone's got to come up with a heat pump solution for that appliance. I have half a mind to start experimenting with a used clothes dryer and a big Therma-stor central dehu in lieu of its resistance elements, but my 3 jobs and two small children leave little time for such science experiments. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 16 Sep 2009 11:14 AM |
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Posted By drao on 09/09/2009 9:23 AM
... Brian and Mike are here this morning, changing compressors on the 4 and 5 ton units. Will get more detail on that soon. What's the word? Any update? Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 17 Sep 2009 09:26 AM |
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Brian is supposed to be replacing a part this morning on the 4 ton unit. He is yet to post the data. He said he would post all data today after the part is replaced. The weather has started cooling down. Also, I am posting the reads since they changed compressors. Please note that the thermostat controlling the 5 ton unit was set at 85F in error by Brian when he left on 09/09/09, instead of 75F . I did not find that out till about 2 days ago. It hasn't been that warm recently here . Here are the reads from 09/09/09 till now. So, what do you all think? Has performance improved appreciably?
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09/09/09
9.30am before starting the systems back up |
00073 00 |
1838 00 |
4821 00 |
02936 15 |
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After systems ran for 2 hrs |
No compressor change- read not taken |
1845 07 |
4827 06 |
02953 17 |
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Read at 6.30 pm |
00076 03 |
1855 10 |
4831 04 |
02981 28
High 79F |
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09/10/09 |
00079 03 |
1873 18 |
4831 00 |
3038 57
High 79F |
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09/11/09 |
00081 02 |
1881 08 |
4831 00 |
3074 36
High 78F |
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09/12/09 |
00082 01 |
1891 10 |
4831 00 |
3112 38
High 75F |
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09/13/09 |
00083 01 |
1899 08 |
4831 00 |
3161 49
High 80F |
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09/14/09 |
00086 03 |
1914 15 |
4831 00 |
3207 46
High 82F |
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09/15/09 |
00090 04 |
1928 14 |
4841 10 |
3264 57
High 78F |
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09/16/09 |
00090 00 |
1931 03 |
4841 00 |
3300 36
High 67F | |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 17 Sep 2009 11:59 AM |
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Sorry for not adding the headers
2Ton 4 Ton 5Ton Main
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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| 22 Sep 2009 07:24 AM |
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Okay I am back. Just for fun I took readings on all three systems. Nothing has been done to the two ton system. I took readings in heat and cool modes. I will post each system alone for clarity.
Two Ton Cool mode Suction Pressure 75 PSIG Line Temp 55.1 Discharge Pressure 175 PSIG Line Temp 91.5
Earth Loop Vapor Pressure 170 PSIG Line Temp 78.9 Liquid Pressure 85 PSIG Line Temp 51.9
Air Coil Vapor Pressure 75 PSIG Line Temp 52.8 Liquid Pressure 85 PSIG Line Temp 52.6
Air Coil Air Entering 77.6 db 62.8 wb Air Coil Leaving 50.8 db 48.5 wb
Amp Draw at the compressor C- 6.15 S- 4.87 R- 6.56 I took reads on all three leads Voltage 247.8
Total BTUH 34,637 24,892 Sensible 9745 Latent |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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| 22 Sep 2009 07:31 AM |
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Two Ton Heat Mode
Suction Pressure 70 PSIG Line Temp 44.7 Discharge Pressure 215 PSIG Line Temp 123.2
Earthloop Vapor 50 PSIG Line Temp 53.7 Liquid 140 PSIG Line Temp 75.3
Aircoil Vapor 220 PSIG Line Temp 127.3 Liquid 220 PSIG Line Temp 98.5
Compressor Amps C- 7.48 S- 4.68 R- 7.09 247.8 VAC
Aircoil air temps entering 83.3 leaving 105.6 21,676 BTUH |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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| 22 Sep 2009 07:48 AM |
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Four Ton Cool, Mode
Suction Pressure 63 PSIG Line Temp 53.0 Discharge Pressure 210 PSIG Line Temp 134.7
Eartloop Vapor 225 PSIG Line temp 123.7 Liquid 175 PSIG Line Temp 76.4
Aircoil Vapor 67 PSIG Line Temp 61.4 Liquid 86 PSIG Line Temp 64.7
Compressor Amps C- 13.61 S- 9.56 R- 12.78 248.2 VAC
Aircoil Air Temps Entering 71.4 db 60.0 wb Leaving 50.2 db 47.7 wb
Total BTUH 56,687 Sensible BTUH 38,923 Latent BTUH 17,764
Heat Mode
Compressor Pressure Suction 54 PSIG Line Temp 43.1 Discharge 225 PSIG Line Temp 121.4
Earthloop Vapor 54 PSIG Line Temp 53.5 Liquid 118 PSIG Line Temp 74.6
Aircoil Vapor 225 PSIG Line Temp 131.3 Liquid 225 PSIG Line Temp 91.5
Aircoil Air Temps Entering 74.6 Leaving 101.2 48,838 BTUH
Compressor Amp Draw C- 14.08 S- 9.29 R- 13.09 |
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airhead1164
New Member
Posts:23
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| 22 Sep 2009 08:05 AM |
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Five Ton Cool Mode
Compressor Pressure Suction 45 PSIG Line Temp 33.2 Discharge 170 PSIG Line Temp 108.6
Earthloop Vapor 170 PSIG Line Temp 116.3 Liquid 110 PSIG Line Temp 65.4
Aircoil Vapor 45 PSIG Line Temp 43.4 Liquid 72 PSIG Line Temp 56.4
Aircoil Air Temps Entering 71.7 db 59.6 wb Leaving 42.2 db 38.9 wb
Compressor Amp Draw C- 18.63 S- 12.08 R- 20.74 248.2 VAC
Total BTUH= 96,862 Sensible BTUH=59,738 Latent BTUH=37,124 Sounds crazy I know. I measured several times.
Five Ton Heat Mode
Compressor Pressure Suction 46 PSIG Line Temp 42.9 Discharge 220 PSIG LIne Temp 138.8
Earthloop Vapor 48 PSIG Line Temp 42.9 Liquid 195 PSIG Line Temp 96.7
Aircoil Vapor 220 PSIG Line Temp 129.3 Liquid 205 PSIG Line Temp 97.6
Aircoil Air Temps Entering 76.1 Leaving 99.5
Compressor Amp Draw C- 20.48 S- 12.07 R- 21.04 248.2 VAC
Sensible heat 53,071 BTUH
Thanks again to everyone for the positive input.
Brian |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 22 Sep 2009 09:27 PM |
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5 ton amps came way down - that's a good sign. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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