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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 24 Sep 2009 10:37 AM |
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Here are the reads from 09/17/09. The 4 ton unit was turned off By Brian on 09/16/09 since he did not complete the part repacement till 09/17/09. 2 Ton 4Ton 5Ton Main
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09/17/09
4 ton unit off |
00090 00 |
1931 00 |
4841 00 |
3326 26
High 71F |
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09/18/09
All units forced on and tested by Brian |
00093 03 |
1936 05 |
4846 05 |
3395 69
High 74F |
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09/19/09 |
00093 00 |
1936 00 |
4846 00 |
3422 27
High 69F |
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09/20/09 |
00093 00 |
1936 00 |
4846 00 |
3452 30
High 74F |
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09/21/09 |
00094 01 |
1938 02 |
4847 01 |
3484 32
High 77F |
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09/22/09 |
00098 04 |
1948 10 |
4855 08 |
3530 46
High 80F |
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09/23/09 |
00101 03 |
1954 06 |
4861 06 |
3577 47
High 75F | What do you all think about the consumption? Please give your input. Thanks for all the assistance so far. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 24 Sep 2009 09:54 PM |
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I'm having trouble divorcing your house loads from unit loads: 17Sep09 house load 26kwh. 18Sep09 unit total load 13, grand total load 69 house load 57?
19Sep09 house load 27 - Ok
20Sep09 house load 30 - ok
21Sep09 house load 28 unit load 4 - ok
22Sep 09 house load 24 unit load 22 - Just 3 degrees increase outside raised unit load so much?
23Sep09 house load 32 Unit load 15 - that on a high temp of 75, but on 21Sep09 high was 77 and unit load only 4 |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 27 Sep 2009 10:00 AM |
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2 Ton 4Ton 5Ton Main
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09/17/09
4 ton unit off |
00090 00 |
1931 00 |
4841 00 |
3326 26
High 71F |
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09/18/09
All units forced on and tested by Brian |
00093 03 |
1936 05 |
4846 05 |
3395 69
High 74F |
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09/19/09 |
00093 00 |
1936 00 |
4846 00 |
3422 27
High 69F |
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09/20/09 |
00093 00 |
1936 00 |
4846 00 |
3452 30
High 74F |
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09/21/09 |
00094 01 |
1938 02 |
4847 01 |
3484 32
High 77F |
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09/22/09 |
00098 04 |
1948 10 |
4855 08 |
3530 46
High 80F |
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09/23/09 |
00101 03 |
1954 06 |
4861 06 |
3577 47
High 75F | What do you all think about the consumption? Please give your input. Thanks for all the assistance so far. 22Sep 09 house load 24 unit load 22 - Just 3 degrees increase outside raised unit load so much? 23Sep09 house load 32 Unit load 15 - that on a high temp of 75, but on 21Sep09 high was 77 and unit load only 4
I see that on 22nd the high is 80 F up from 77 F on the 21st (may have had higher nightime temps on the 21st resulting in units running at night on the 21st as well)
On the 21st high was 77 up from 74F on the 20th . Hence units may have run less at night on the 20th. Also, does not humidity levels have something to do with unit consumption?
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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| 27 Sep 2009 12:37 PM |
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It would be really helpful to know runtimes, so we could compute the actual load. However, off-the-cuff, the numbers make some sense. On a moderate, sunny day, you might expect the system to run for 1-2 hours and the resulting loads are right in line with that. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 29 Sep 2009 11:52 AM |
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Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment to measure running time.
Here are the final reads -COOLING MODE! I very reluctantly switched to heating mode yesterday after taking the reads.
2 Ton 4Ton 5Ton Main
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09/23/09 |
00101 03 |
1954 06 |
4861 06 |
3577 47
High 75F |
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09/24/09 |
00102 01 |
1956 02 |
4863 02 |
3608 31
High 71F |
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09/25/09 |
00102 00 |
1956 00 |
4863 00 |
3637 29
High 71F |
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09/26/09 |
00102 00 |
1956 00 |
4863 00 |
3660 23
High 63F |
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09/27/09 |
00102 00 |
1956 00 |
4863 00 |
3686 26
High 71F |
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09/28/09 |
00102 00 |
1956 00 |
4863 00 |
3710 24
High 63F | I will continue to post reads on HEATING MODE . Please continue to offer input. Thanks again. I have talked to Brian and he said he would look at the previous reads and try to offer a possible explanation to the questions you have . |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 30 Sep 2009 06:23 PM |
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I am posting my first two days of heating mode reads for you to comment on. I can easily see that there is still something significantly wrong with my 4 Ton unit.
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2 Ton |
4 Ton |
5 Ton |
Main |
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09/28/09
Before units
Switched to Heating Mode
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00102 |
1956 |
4863 |
3710
High 63F |
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09/29/09 |
00107 05
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1991 35
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4868 05
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3790 80
High 58F |
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09/30/09 |
00113 06
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2022 31 |
4875 07 |
3869 79
| Please comment on all probable problems with it. Brian is out of town till early next week and hence unable to take a look at it now. Thanks again! |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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| 30 Sep 2009 07:02 PM |
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Ouch, that's really high!
I know you said that you don't have a way of measuring the time the system actually runs. However, this is critical data for diagnosis.
It would be extremely useful if you could simply time how long that system runs vs. how long it is off, one of these nights while the system runs.
We need at least one complete cycle. If you check the outdoor temperature at the same time, that will be very useful.
So, for example, say it runs for 30 minutes, turns off for 5, then runs again for 34 minutes, turns off for 4 etc. when it is 55F outside.
That will tell us two interesting things.
First, we could determine how hard the system has to work at a given temperature. Second, the "off" time would let us know how fast the house is losing heat.
A third piece of good info would be the temperature of the air going into the return and coming out of the supply. This will give us a rough idea of how much heat the system is delivering to your home while it's running in a malfunctioning mode like it is now.
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 30 Sep 2009 10:03 PM |
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Readington sells LCD hourmeters for $30 that increment on presence of any voltage from 20-277. I have several of them on water heater elements and Y1, Y2 control signals on my geo. For under $100 I know exact runtimes of geo system and water heater every day.
This is in keeping with my signature here. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 01 Oct 2009 08:40 AM |
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Thank you for your suggestions. I will try timing the 4 ton unit run times and off times -possibly in the evening /night and will also obtain outside temp at the time. I will also look into the meters once Brian gets back. I hope to get this info posted tomorrow. Being in this forum has given me valuable insight and information on geothermal systems and I continue to learn! Thanks again! |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 01 Oct 2009 07:50 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 09/30/2009 10:03 PM
Readington sells LCD hourmeters for $30 that increment on presence of any voltage from 20-277. I have several of them on water heater elements and Y1, Y2 control signals on my geo. For under $100 I know exact runtimes of geo system and water heater every day.
This is in keeping with my signature here. Hey Engineer, which model do you use. I went to the website and was quickly mired down in the all of the choices. Thanks
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 02 Oct 2009 09:15 AM |
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Dewayne,
I couldn't find my paperwork during a brief search, and it appears from their website that models have changed. Here's what I think I'd go with today, pasted from Grainger website - their item # 3AE20 for $32.70. I may have gotten mine from DrillSpot for $30 even, but that was 2 years ago.
REDINGTON 3311-0000 Hour Meter, Electronic - 2.04 x 1.10 - 2-Hole Rectangular
* Electrical
* > Counters & Hour Meters
* > Hour Meters
* > Hour Meter, Electronic
LCD Electronic Hour Meter, 2 Hole Rectangular, Registers Elapsed Time to 99999.9 Hr, LCD Polarized for High Visibility in Sunlight, NEMA 4/4X, Bezel Face Width 2.04 Inches, Height 1.10 Inches, Length from Back to Bezel 0.44 Inches, Voltage 10-277 VDC or 20-277 VAC @ 50/60 Hz, Display 6 Digits, Number Height 7 Millimeters, Case Black Polymer, Fits Panel Opening 1.45 x 0.95 Inches, Spade Terminals 1/4 Inch/6.3 Millimeters, Includes Clip Retainer, Mounting Screws, -40 Celsius To + 85 Celsius
The broad AC and DC voltage input range means it will increment on anything from a tractor ignition switch (12 VDC) to 240 VAC across a contactor output - very flexible
I have two on each of Y1 and Y2 lines off my zone board and one more on lower element of my main water heater (inactive since I deployed Geyser HPWH)
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 05 Oct 2009 11:56 AM |
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Sorry for the delay.
Here are the operating times for the 4 ton unit on 10/04/09. It services the basement and upstairs-2 separate zones.
Start time: 5.38 PM 6.00PM 6.36 PM 7.04PM 7.32PM 7.44PM 8.05PM
End Time: 5.41PM 6.06PM 6.42PM 7.10PM 7.38PM 7.48PM 8.11PM
Run Time 3 mins 6 mins 6 mins 6 mins 6mins 4 mins 6 mins
Zone Running: Upstairs(U) Basement(B) B B B U B
Yesterday, high was 57F and low was 45F and at the time, measurements were taken temps were about 50F.
Thanks for all the assistance. |
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 05 Oct 2009 12:00 PM |
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Here are the reads for the different units:
2 Ton 4 Ton 5 Ton
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10/01/09 |
00121 08 |
2053 31 |
4883 08 |
3951 82
High 60F |
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10/02/09 |
00127 06 |
2082 29 |
4885 02 |
4026 75
High 57F |
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10/03/09 |
00133 06 |
2108 26 |
4893 08 |
4091 65
High 55F |
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10/04/09 |
00139 06 |
2132 24 |
4898 05 |
4155 64
High 57F | |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 05 Oct 2009 04:49 PM |
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Am I correct in combining the last two posts - that the 4 ton unit ran for a grand total of 37 minutes on 4 October and used 24 kwh of electricity?
I hope I'm wrong! |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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| 05 Oct 2009 09:13 PM |
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I'm looking at it a bit differently. We have 31 minutes of run time between 5:38 and 8:05, which is 147 minutes total time. I exclude the last run so that we can compute whole number of cycles. 31/147 is roughly 1/5 duty cycle when the temperature was ~50F.
So, by a crude extrapolation:
24 hour run time at 50F is approximately 5 hours for which we'd expect to be using about 20+- kwh
The things that seems off to me are:
5 hours runtime at 50F - seems like a lot to me for a highly insulated home. In my home, using the same 4-ton system (ECR DX system with 4x100ft ground loops) at 50F average daily temperature runs for about 3 hours at the start of the heating season, with a system design temperature of about 15F. However, interestingly, at the end of the heating season, it might run for 5 hours or more, when the ground has frozen from the ground loops. I don't want to go into details on my system to confuse things, but am just providing these numbers just to give some comparisons.
The other obvious issue is extremely short run-times. That's not great for the compressors. Maybe the span is too small?
So my short summary is:
- system is short cycling, may want a bigger temperature span set for the thermostat
- kwh used for this duty cycle seems essentially in line.
- run time at this temperature seems higher than expected, especially with one zone being the basement. But this really depends on the heat load
going forward,
Do you know the manual-J heat loads for the zones served by this system? Sorry if you mentioned before, but this would help tremendously here. It should be easy to calculate an expected heat load at 50F and compare that with the projected heat output of the system to see if things are in line.
-Ted
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 06 Oct 2009 06:33 AM |
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You can not extrapolate run time. Heat gain from sunshine et al varies.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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tinoue
New Member
Posts:96
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| 06 Oct 2009 08:06 AM |
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as noted, its rough, but it does work, especially if you have data from cooler temps.
I use this all the time to sanity check things and it does work for that purpose. No, i would not use this for system design but for cases like this its a useful exercise.
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 06 Oct 2009 08:40 AM |
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Just a quick clarification. I am sure the 4 ton unit ran all through the night on 10/04/09 similarly but more frequently as the temps dropped. My reads were only taken for the time period specificied. I will have Brian check these probable issues out. Thanks again!
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drao
New Member
Posts:63
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| 07 Oct 2009 09:46 AM |
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Brian came yesterday and turned the 4 ton Earthlinked unit off and switched my basement and upstairs zones to emergency gas heat. He will be installing the meters mentioned earlier in this thread and also putting temp sensors in my basement to check all parameters. After he switched to emergency gas, a curious situation occurs. When the system comes on, the gas burners come on for a minute or less and turn off and the airhandlers stay on for a few minutes before turning off and the cycle repeats every 20 mins. Any guesses? Outside temps in low 50s. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 07 Oct 2009 03:57 PM |
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Burners tripping out on a high temp limit? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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