|
|
JackH
New Member
Posts:37
 |
| 07 Oct 2009 06:49 PM |
|
This is the one that we always thought had a ductwork issue.
High limit as "engineer" pointed out, can lead to short cycling like that, ...AKA, duct work to small, dirty filter, wrong air volume.
Also what kind of thermostats do you have?
Maybe Brian should put a regular PSC motor back in that one, to test against the ECM, just a thought. or keep the front door off the furnace to see what happens to short cycle.
This all goes back to," bad duct work can kill a heat pump",but it can also " kill a furnace"! |
|
| |
|
|
geo fan
Basic Member
Posts:408
|
| 07 Oct 2009 07:02 PM |
|
Ill jump in here , If the burners are on for LESS then 1 min my first thought would be stat . only because for a high limit to trip in that short amount of time the fan would have to be locked up . but the question is . Does it shut off while the stat is calling . or is the system short cycling because thats what its being told to do . |
|
|
|
|
engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
|
| 07 Oct 2009 08:08 PM |
|
That could well be the case. I have nearly zero experience with gas home furnaces. (Gas units I deal with make 30,000 lb / hr or more steam - controls are a BIT different...)
Adding support to Geo Fan's stat theory is the short cycling of the 4 ton geo unit a page or so back in similar weather - cycles of 3-5 minutes by a geo unit could easily equate to 1 minute cycles by gas heat.
Perhaps the stat is a bit too sensitive or is improperly located near a supply |
|
Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
|
|
|
joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
|
| 07 Oct 2009 11:07 PM |
|
Posted By geo fan on 10/07/2009 7:02 PM
Ill jump in here , If the burners are on for LESS then 1 min my first thought would be stat . only because for a high limit to trip in that short amount of time the fan would have to be locked up . but the question is . Does it shut off while the stat is calling . or is the system short cycling because thats what its being told to do . Welcome back GF, missed ya! If the duct work were causing the short cycle folks, wouldn't it have done it pre-geo? j |
|
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
|
|
drao
New Member
Posts:63
|
| 08 Oct 2009 08:27 AM |
|
Thank you for the input. My guess is also that it is a thermostat issue. Brian replaced all my previous thermostats with some state of the art Honeywell ones. I have to find out the model. This did not happen with my gas furnace previously. Hence it cannot be a duct problem. My electricity use with no 4Ton unit on is also higher than normal probably because of the airhandlers coming on frequently. He is coming today to check it out. Here are the reads.
|
10/04/09 |
00139 06 |
2132 24 |
4898 05 |
4155 64
High 57F |
|
10/05/09 |
00143 04 |
2159 27 |
4900 02 |
4226 71
High 57F |
|
10/06/09
At 3PM , 4 Ton
Switched off and system set to Emergency Gas Mode |
00149 06 |
2184 25 |
4904 04 |
4296 70
High 61F |
|
10/07/09 |
00155 06 |
2184 00 |
4905 01 |
4339 43
High 57F | |
|
|
|
|
JackH
New Member
Posts:37
|
| 08 Oct 2009 08:36 AM |
|
That is why I questioned the thermostat. If there is a cycle rate per hour or a heat pump/gas heat switch on the back, in the wrong position.
Or it could be as simple as, debris in the drain line, causing a backup of condensate from the furnace to shut the flame off. but if the furnace is completely shuting off after flame goes out, its probably not. |
|
| |
|
|
drao
New Member
Posts:63
|
| 08 Oct 2009 08:43 AM |
|
Thanks for the quick response. I will have Brian look into these pointers when he gets here . |
|
|
|
|
Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:180
|
| 08 Oct 2009 10:10 AM |
|
"This did not happen with my gas furnace previously. Hence it cannot be a duct problem." The ducts are the same, but there are new ECM motors pushing air through them.
Regards,
Masoud |
|
|
|
|
drao
New Member
Posts:63
|
| 08 Oct 2009 03:35 PM |
|
I am told that the Honeywell thermostats are Model : TH6320R1004 with wireless capability. To Mr. Masoud, I am not sure I understand the drift of the new ECM motors causing short cycling. Please elaborate. Thanks. Brian was here this morning and checked things out. He thinks it may be something to do with the cycling rate of the basement thermostat. He will get in touch with their tech dept. and will have an update when he comes next week with the meters and temp sensors to monitor system run times .
|
|
|
|
|
Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:180
|
| 08 Oct 2009 05:15 PM |
|
My point was that air handlers and ducts are two major components of the air distribution system and work together. Changing one, could have changed the equation, resulting in wrong air volume that was brought up by JackH at the top of this page.
Regards,
Masoud |
|
|
|
|
drao
New Member
Posts:63
|
| 15 Oct 2009 10:17 AM |
|
Here are the past week's meter reads. Brian will be here tomorrow with the run time meters and temp sensors . He also has a call into Honeywell for adjusting thermostat sensitivity. My 4 Ton unit is still off and system is on emergency gas mode.
2Ton 4 Ton 5Ton Main
|
10/08/09 |
00162 07 |
2184 00 |
4911 06 |
4384 45
High 61F |
|
10/09/09 |
00168 06 |
2184 00 |
4911 00 |
4425 41
High 52F |
|
10/10/09 |
00176 08 |
2184 00 |
4920 09 |
4475 50
High 52F |
|
10/11/09 |
00186 10 |
2184 00 |
4932 12 |
4535 60
High 43F |
|
10/12/09 |
00199 13 |
2184 00 |
4944 12 |
4598 63
High 50F |
|
10/13/09 |
00208 09 |
2184 00 |
4952 08 |
4649 51
High 49F |
|
10/14/09 |
00221 13 |
2184 00 |
4968 16 |
4718 69
High 46F | Please let me know if the 2Ton and 5Ton systems are operating as they should with the current temps. Thanks again! |
|
|
|
|
Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
|
| 15 Oct 2009 12:11 PM |
|
There may be a faster way to determining if your system(s) are indeed not performing.
My recommendation is to ask your HVAC professional that's coming tomorrow to include in his measurements whatever's necessary to:
1. compute COP
2. enable look up of manufacturer's COP spec (it will vary as a function of various parameters that may need to be additionally measured).
Then, ask him to do the COP computation, look up what the spec is for the conditions of measurement, and simply tell you if the computed COP is at or below manufacturer spec. And do this for each unit.
This is a straight forward exercise with a water-to-air GSHP. What I don't know is how difficult this is with refrigerant-to-air (DX) technology systems.
If COP can be measured here, then it's going to give you a 'figure of merit' for the complete system - the refrigerant piping, the compressor pumping, and GSHP unit itself, that can be compared to 'good' versus 'not good.'
The reason I offer these comments is because, 9 or so pages into this thread, after a lot of expense on the part of the HVAC installer, and after a lot of aggravation / cost to the owner, still, it's very uncertain if it's the equipment or the house (including the duct system).
Hence, the suggestion here is thought to assist with at least getting quickly to the decision point of 'it's the house' or 'it's the equipment.'
Good luck.
Best regards,
Bill |
|
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
|
|
|
Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
|
| 17 Oct 2009 09:41 AM |
|
Thanks Curt, I am anxious to try these out.
|
|
Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
|
|
drao
New Member
Posts:63
|
| 10 Nov 2009 11:29 AM |
|
Hi everyone,
I haven't been updating recently since there was not much to update. Brian had to order the meters from another state and they took their time. He is in the process of putting them in. Hopefully, he will get it done today. I briefly turned on the 4Ton unit(on 10/17/09 and 10/18/09) and the energy drain happened immediately. I turned it off as in the table after talking to Brian. Both my basement and upstairs zones are on gas heat presently. I just got my Oct 09 bill and I noted this from the bill.
Last year at the same time, I had complete geothermal heat. Here's some data , temperature maintained 72F
Last year gas usage/day (cooking and hot water only) : 0.248MCF
This year gas usage/day(cooking, hot water and heating basement and upstairs-4t unit area): 0.397MCF
In other words, the gas consumption for heating the area of the 4Ton unit(upstairs and basement)/day is : 0.397-0.248=0.149MCF
For 30 daysi.e. a month it is 0.1249*30= 4.47MCF=$45.14 in heating costs.($10.098/MCF)
From the statistics provided to me by Brian, this unit, in October was supposed to consume 332.6kwh translating to about $30 in heating costs.
If you observe the fact that the 4Ton unit consumed 37kwh in just one day with moderate temps, that would amount to 1110 kwh for 30 days or $100!(conservative estimate!). Even the 5Ton unit uses less!!
So, people is it wrong for me to assert that this unit is a piece of JUNK! The only hole I see is the MONEY PIT!
Please offer me your well meaning comments.
Thanks!
drao
2T 4T 5T Main
|
10/15/09 |
00235 14 |
2184 00 |
4989 21 |
4789 71
High 45F
|
|
10/16/09 |
No reads taken |
No reads taken |
No reads taken |
No reads taken
High 46F |
|
10/17/09
4 Ton started back at noon with modified
Cycle times on stats
|
00262 00 |
2190 06
System worked
Only 6 hrs before reading |
5021 32 |
4936 147
High 47F |
|
10/18/09
Turned off 4 Ton at 8PM after talking to Brian |
00275 13 |
2227 37 |
5045 24 |
5050 114
High 50F |
|
10/19/09 |
00287 12 |
2230 03 |
5048 03 |
5100 50
High 60F |
|
10/20/09 |
00292 06 |
2230 00 |
5048 00 |
5136 36
High 62F |
|
10/21/09
Brian turned on 4 Ton unit to check performance for 30 mins |
00294 02 |
2231 01 |
5048 00 |
5166 30
High 67F
|
|
10/22/09 |
00297 03 |
2231 00 |
5048 00 |
5195 29
High 59F |
|
10/23/09 |
00309 12 |
2231 00 |
5053 05 |
5251 56
High 60F |
|
10/24/09
|
00316 07 |
2231 00 |
5054 01 |
5288 37
High 54F |
|
10/25/09 |
00325 09 |
2231 00 |
5062 08 |
5343 55
High 58F
|
|
10/26/09 |
00333 08 |
2231 00 |
5062 00 |
5380 37
High 61F |
|
10/27/09 |
00338 05 |
2231 00 |
5062 00 |
5413 33
High 55F |
|
10/28/09 |
00344 06 |
2231 00 |
5062 00 |
5447 34
High 54F |
|
10/29/09 |
00350 06 |
2231 00 |
5062 00 |
5489 42
High 55F |
|
10/30/09 |
00357 07 |
2231 00 |
5064 02 |
5526 37
High 70F |
|
10/31/09 |
00361 04 |
2231 00 |
5064 00 |
5560 34
High 61F |
|
11/01/09 |
00370 09 |
2231 00 |
5072 08 |
5610 50
High 48F |
|
11/02/09 |
00383 13 |
2231 00 |
5080 08 |
5664 54
High 49F |
|
11/03/09 |
00395 12 |
2231 00 |
5089 09 |
5718 54
High 47F |
|
11/04/09
|
00409 14 |
2231 00 |
5101 12 |
5779 61
High 45F |
|
11/05/09 |
00421 12 |
2231 00 |
5112 11 |
5834 55
High 47F |
|
11/06/09 |
00437 16 |
2231 00 |
5125 13 |
5899 65
High 48F |
|
11/07/09 |
No Reads |
No Reads |
No Reads |
No Reads
High 66F |
|
11/08/09 |
00452 15 |
2231 00 |
5132 07 |
5984 85
High 69F |
|
11/09/09 |
00454 02 |
2231 00 |
5132 00 |
6014 30
High 65F | |
|
|
|
|
drao
New Member
Posts:63
|
| 11 Nov 2009 12:41 PM |
|
Just an update. The meters have been installed by Brian today and I am going to switch to complete geothermal this evening after reads are taken- for a 24 hr period so run times may be obtained. Brian turned on the 4Ton unit temporarily to check meters installed correctly. Tomorrow at the same time, I will switch 4Ton unit off and go back to gas heat so as to stem the energy hemorrhage. I will post data when I have it. |
|
|
|
|
drao
New Member
Posts:63
|
| 25 Nov 2009 11:36 AM |
|
Just an update. I have sent run time info with 4TON EARTHLINKED DX UNIT for 24 hrs and then switched the same to NATURAL GAS MODE FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME to Brian. He is currently in the process of crunching numbers and will get back to me with the result which I will post promptly. Please check for updates. " THE TRUTH OF THE PUDDING(PUMPKIN PIE) IS IN THE EATING OF IT. ALSO, THE GOOSE (TURKEY) IS FINALLY COOKED! HAPPY THANKSGIVING! |
|
|
|
|
soxster
New Member
Posts:19
|
| 14 Dec 2009 11:40 AM |
|
Did this finally get resolved?? I am looking at a Earthlinked DX system in southern Missouri (5 ton), and hearing cases like this, obviously gives me pause/hesitation, before jumping onto the geothermal bandwagon. I hope Earthlink reps are paying attention for future sales potential. I do not want to buy into a system that is not consumer responsive to problems with their equipment. thanks |
|
|
|
|
southline
New Member
Posts:20
|
| 16 Dec 2009 10:09 PM |
|
Well.....? What happend next? |
|
|
|
|
soxster
New Member
Posts:19
|
| 20 Dec 2009 06:03 PM |
|
I guess this got resolved I see no further gripping here. |
|
|
|
|
Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
|
| 20 Dec 2009 08:31 PM |
|
Posted By soxster on 12/20/2009 6:03 PM
I guess this got resolved I see no further gripping here. Sounds like a leap of faith to me.
|
|
Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
|
|